F.E.A.S.T's Around The Dinner Table forum

Welcome to F.E.A.S.T's Around The Dinner Table forum. This is a free service provided for parents of those suffering from eating disorders. It is moderated by kind, experienced, parent caregivers trained to guide you in how to use the forum and how to find resources to help you support your family member. This forum is for parents of patients with all eating disorder diagnoses, all ages, around the world.

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Scaredmom Show full post »
ValentinaGermania
Scaredmom wrote:
This is what bullying and society today does to a child and I wish I could give all those kids a huge eye opener and show them what they have done to my daughter.


I just want to add that the bullying maybe started the dieting but is not a reason for anorexia. Anorexia is a genetic metabolism disease and it can be caused by any weight loss. If she had started to diet because she wanted to be a model or if she had a noro-virus infection or a a streptokok infection (Pans/Pandas).
If a healthy child is bullied and starts a diet it gets hungry after some days and starts to eat again. You know that as the yoyo effect. Normal persons cannot starve themselves to death. AN patients can. If you have those gens you cannot stop dieting and you will starve yourself to death if nobody stops you. That is the difference.

A lot of AN patients had a wonderful childhood and were never bullied and had no problems before. And got sick from AN though.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Scaredmom
Thank you for sharing your story. It brought me to tears. I am sorry you both had to go through that and I am fearful of having to go through that too. I never even imagined any one of my kids having this disease. It crept up so quietly. I pray every night for her and I hope I can be strong enough to get her through this.I don't have any other choice but to be strong for her.
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Scaredmom
I have limited knowledge on this disease. I assumed this all started from her being bullied. Thank you for that info. I need to do more reading on this.
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greekdude
Very well put @ValentinaGermania , very nice explanation , which begs the question : since it is in the genes, then isn't it better for the AN condition to manifest herself sooner than later? Isn't it easier to heal with adolescents rather than full grown adults?
If this is true, then maybe we should thank God it happened so early @Scaredmom (your D and my S being same age). It is a nightmare no doubt but all kids get healed in the end! All the tools, all the literature, all the fine members here with their vast experience are here to help you defeat this terrible disease. As I understand only completely abandoned children have poor odds of making it. Children with parent(s) will make it one way or another as long as parents are determined and focused on this. I have no special experience just my POV (or my hope). 
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ValentinaGermania
greekdude wrote:
Very well put @ValentinaGermania , very nice explanation , which begs the question : since it is in the genes, then isn't it better for the AN condition to manifest herself sooner than later? Isn't it easier to heal with adolescents rather than full grown adults?
If this is true, then maybe we should thank God it happened so early @Scaredmom (your D and my S being same age). It is a nightmare no doubt but all kids get healed in the end! All the tools, all the literature, all the fine members here with their vast experience are here to help you defeat this terrible disease. As I understand only completely abandoned children have poor odds of making it. Children with parent(s) will make it one way or another as long as parents are determined and focused on this. I have no special experience just my POV (or my hope). 
 

The AN needs as a kickstart a weight loss. If that happens at age 11 you get sick from AN at age 11. If that happens at age 15 you get sick at age 15. I know a woman that had her first serious weight loss at age 23 and she got sick at that age.
If you are interested in these genetical things, I would suggest to read Shan Guisingers theorie why AN survived evolution, it is very intersting. And explains A LOT.
https://www.adaptedtofamine.com/

And to answer your question "isn't it better for the AN condition to manifest herself sooner than later? Isn't it easier to heal with adolescents rather than full grown adults?", I personally see that the younger the patients are the easier and faster they can recover. If you get sick at an adult age it is much harder to recover in my experience.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Scaredmom
I will definitely be giving that website a read. I want to learn about this disease as much as possible. Thank you
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Torie
greekdude wrote:
As I understand only completely abandoned children have poor odds of making it. Children with parent(s) will make it one way or another as long as parents are determined and focused on this.
 
Oops, sorry, have to disagree there.  AN and other EDs have the highest mortality rate of any mental illness, similar to childhood cancer.  About half the excess mortality is due to suicide and the rest is often heart failure.

All types of families are vulnerable to this hearbreak, no matter their love and dedication. xx

-Torie
"We are angels of hope, of healing, and of light. Darkness flees from us." -YP 
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greekdude
@Torie thanks, I agree about high mortality rate. LeGrange & Lock (writers of the FBT manual) write that the coordination and level of agreement and coopertion among the parents is a key predictor of the final remission. So I guess the type of family does not matter to the trigger of the illness itself, but it matters to its end.
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sandie
I am sure we all do our best to cooperate as parents to help our kids with ED recover.  It can be tricky to always be on same page and some parents struggle to get involved with refeeding. Everyone has different strengths. I believe that recovery is possible no matter what the type of family. As one of the moderators says in her footnote - Food and love are key. Wishing everyone the best.
Courage is not the absence of despair; it is rather the capacity to move ahead in spite of despair
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ValentinaGermania
greekdude wrote:
So I guess the type of family does not matter to the trigger of the illness itself, but it matters to its end.
 

Here are a lot of single parents that did a really heroic work alone to get their kids recovered. It is way harder to do that alone but in some cases even easier because when the parents are not on the same side it is easier not to need to discuss anything 🙂.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Foodsupport_AUS
greekdude wrote:
@Torie thanks, I agree about high mortality rate. LeGrange & Lock (writers of the FBT manual) write that the coordination and level of agreement and coopertion among the parents is a key predictor of the final remission. So I guess the type of family does not matter to the trigger of the illness itself, but it matters to its end.
 

There is no doubt that in studies that there are factors that increase the success of FBT in treating eating disorders, parental co-operation, reduced expressed emotion, early intervention are all factors. That being said FBT does does not work for all kids with FBT, far from it. It is just the best first treatment for children and teens as per evidence based treatments. Despite great treatment, great work by all teams involved some people are not healed. There are a number of parents who have been on this board and who visit occasionally who have lost children from their illness. We should never forget this. This is our remembrance page for those that have requested being placed on it. There are many others. 

The risk of ED's however is something that drives us harder to help our children recover. Understanding that there is real risk attached to this, that this is not vanity or an illness of one's choosing is essential in helping them recover. If our children have to get sick it is probably better that it happens when younger when supports are better and they have less need to engage in treatment,  but genes are not destiny and ideally in the future we will have ways of reducing the chances of illness at all. Just because someone gets sick at 10 and recovers doesn't mean they won't get sick at 30. 
D diagnosed restrictive AN June 2010 age 13. Initially weight restored 2012. Relapse and continuously edging towards recovery. Treatment: multiple hospitalisations and individual and family therapy.
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needhelp
Hi Scaredmom2019,

I am so happy you found this forum - it has helped me so much!! Amazing parents who truly understand what you and your family are going through.
As always on here - you have been given wonderful advice.  The one thing I would like to add that was very helpful to pull my daughter from AN was to have some sort of a carrot (no food pun intended) to dangle in front of her.  My daughter had a particular activity that was extremely important to her - but AN had stolen the muscle needed for this activity - and the perks that go with it. Sometimes she would go watch - but she had to eat something first, and was never allowed to drive without having eaten (as she became healthier and could again drive).  She did come home from college - but was determined to keep two classes - and her professors made arrangements (we drove her for tests).  The fact that she didn't want to give up on her education and holding on to something that was tied to a future was very encouraging (we needed to hold on to that during the rages). So important to have something, besides being skinny, that is important to them.

Also, I let her distract herself while eating.  Ironically, she watched cooking videos - but just having the video on distracted her from paying to close attention to what she was eating.  To be honest, I hate that she still often does that at breakfast when she is home - but I remind myself how beneficial it was - one of the many ways we need to be flexible.

Wishing 2020 be a year of change for your daughter and your family.  

Hugs!!
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Scaredmom
Thank you so much for th added advice. Any help is appreciated. Happy new year!
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atdt31_US
 

There is no doubt that in studies that there are factors that increase the success of FBT in treating eating disorders, parental co-operation, reduced expressed emotion, early intervention are all factors. That being said FBT does does not work for all kids with FBT, far from it. It is just the best first treatment for children and teens as per evidence based treatments. Despite great treatment, great work by all teams involved some people are not healed. There are a number of parents who have been on this board and who visit occasionally who have lost children from their illness. We should never forget this. This is our remembrance page for those that have requested being placed on it. There are many others. 

The risk of ED's however is something that drives us harder to help our children recover. Understanding that there is real risk attached to this, that this is not vanity or an illness of one's choosing is essential in helping them recover. If our children have to get sick it is probably better that it happens when younger when supports are better and they have less need to engage in treatment,  but genes are not destiny and ideally in the future we will have ways of reducing the chances of illness at all. Just because someone gets sick at 10 and recovers doesn't mean they won't get sick at 30. 


Thanks for the gentle reminder that not all survive this.  I am positive it is not as easy as a parent's love, hard work, and commitment the guarantees success .. if that were true we would not have the losses - and I feel confident any suggestion to the contrary was unintended.  But it struck a cord with me for sure, so I am glad, Foodsupport, you interjected with tact to remind us all of those who have battled with love and every ounce of fight and education and still lost.  

Happy New Year to all, and here's to hoping that in 2020 we make great strides as a community in educating others about the dangers of this illness, and continue to support each other.    
Mom of either pre-diagnosis or non-ed underweight 12 yoa (as of March 2018) kid here to learn how to achieve weight gain.  BMI steadily in the mid 12's for nearly her entire life.  Born 2006. UPDATE:  April 2018 diagnosed ARFID, based solely on weight being less than 75% of Ideal Body Weight.  Mildly picky, but mostly the problem is a volume/early satiety issue, along with abdominal discomfort and chronic constipation, all present since birth.  UPDATE:  July 2019 diagnosed with PANS. Dr. said likely started first PANS episode at less than 1 or 2 years of age.  On long-term daily prophylactic antibiotics. BMI now about 16 after period of intense refeeding prior to PANS dx,  followed by stagnation as we sort out what is next. FWIW ED-D is a fraternal twin and we have no other kids.
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teecee

I needed to read too when my D became unwell with AN. I found Eva MUSBY resources great to get quick snippets but loved Deciding Anorexia by Carrie Arnold, when I had a bit more energy after refeeding, to get a real understanding without it being too scientific. She makes a really complex illness more easily understandable. 

of course the carers on this forum are fantastic for ideas and are there to pick you up and dust you off whenever needed 🥰

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greekdude
 

There is no doubt that in studies that there are factors that increase the success of FBT in treating eating disorders, parental co-operation, reduced expressed emotion, early intervention are all factors. That being said FBT does does not work for all kids with FBT, far from it. It is just the best first treatment for children and teens as per evidence based treatments. Despite great treatment, great work by all teams involved some people are not healed. There are a number of parents who have been on this board and who visit occasionally who have lost children from their illness. We should never forget this. This is our remembrance page for those that have requested being placed on it. There are many others. 

The risk of ED's however is something that drives us harder to help our children recover. Understanding that there is real risk attached to this, that this is not vanity or an illness of one's choosing is essential in helping them recover. If our children have to get sick it is probably better that it happens when younger when supports are better and they have less need to engage in treatment,  but genes are not destiny and ideally in the future we will have ways of reducing the chances of illness at all. Just because someone gets sick at 10 and recovers doesn't mean they won't get sick at 30. 


I was so blatantly wrong. Sorry for my behavior. Courage to all those who stayed behind.
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greekdude
 

The AN needs as a kickstart a weight loss. If that happens at age 11 you get sick from AN at age 11. If that happens at age 15 you get sick at age 15. I know a woman that had her first serious weight loss at age 23 and she got sick at that age.
If you are interested in these genetical things, I would suggest to read Shan Guisingers theorie why AN survived evolution, it is very intersting. And explains A LOT.
https://www.adaptedtofamine.com/

And to answer your question "isn't it better for the AN condition to manifest herself sooner than later? Isn't it easier to heal with adolescents rather than full grown adults?", I personally see that the younger the patients are the easier and faster they can recover. If you get sick at an adult age it is much harder to recover in my experience.


Hello @ValentinaGermania , gave it a read. This makes a lot sense. But still does not explain the most basic question : Why do those people intensify their dislike of food once the others discover their condition and try feeding them? How could this translate in ancient terms? : "Did those people pretend that still food is not found and intensify their search even tho the new environment is found and new food is now available?" . The answer might be terrifying.

Which begs the inevitable question :
Did cultures in those ancient civilizations have any protocol/custom/habit/method about dealing with those brave foragers after the sought after new territory was found and food was again available? Did ppl in those ancient cultures just capture the restricting over-exercising foragers and fed them by force? Or did those brave foragers simply become legends and saints? I am terrified at the latter possibility.
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MKR
Good question @greekdude. This behaviour (intensified resistance and anxiety at the start of refeeding) is indeed peculiar and at the same time so universal across the population of AN patients. 

The biological origins merit a new thread and input from researchers. While busy with immediate refeeding, I too have read widely on historic cases of malnutrition and consequent behaviour, why it affected some people more than others.
Mum's Kitchen

14-y-o "healthy living" led to AN in 2017 and WR at 16. Current muscle dysmorphia.
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greekdude
Hello @MKR ,
I guess the answer is given here : https://www.adaptedtofamine.com/2013/11/a-guide-for-patients-and-their-families/ : in this paragraph : "It takes a village"
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ValentinaGermania
greekdude wrote:


Hello @ValentinaGermania , gave it a read. This makes a lot sense. But still does not explain the most basic question : Why do those people intensify their dislike of food once the others discover their condition and try feeding them? How could this translate in ancient terms? : "Did those people pretend that still food is not found and intensify their search even tho the new environment is found and new food is now available?" . The answer might be terrifying.

Which begs the inevitable question :
Did cultures in those ancient civilizations have any protocol/custom/habit/method about dealing with those brave foragers after the sought after new territory was found and food was again available? Did ppl in those ancient cultures just capture the restricting over-exercising foragers and fed them by force? Or did those brave foragers simply become legends and saints? I am terrified at the latter possibility.


Shan Guisinger explains that in ancient times once the new ground with food is found and the group is together again it was very hard to keep restricting and not eat with the group as the ancient society had many traditional gatherings that were all combined with eating. In many basic cultures it is up to now an affront not to eat with the group and refuse what you are offered.
So she thinks it was simply not possible to stick to restricting when then AN person was back to the social group (same as we do now with refeeding).

I do not think that these ancient AN patients did pretend that there is still no food found to avoid eating. When you see what our kids do today, they cook for others, they bake for others, they take a lot of time to feed others and to care that they eat normal and all fats and sugar. So it is very much possible that the ancient AN sufferer did bring his group to the new ground to make sure THEY get enough food and do not die of starvation. And then I suppose a big feast was given with a lot of food plated and it was the social pressure that helped the AN sufferer to start to eat again, like today in our families.

It is the only logical explaination up to now why this disease survived evolution.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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greekdude
Brilliantly put once again @ValentinaGermania . One last problem : why do those AN ppl tend to use harsh words towards their parents, sisters, etc? Any explanation ? Shouldn't the loving and caring leaders of the tribe be gentle to the members of the same tribe?
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ValentinaGermania
I think in most cases these people were going on food search alone and needed to leave the group and the family behind.

So there are maybe 2 possible logical explainations:
1) it was needed to be harsh and agressive against anybody that could get into their way and try to stop them from breaking up to search that new ground
2) it was needed to make the seperation from the family more easy for the one that needed to go on that trip and leave the family behind

Just my ideas, Shan Guisinger might explain that different. I have thought a lot about this theory and I think it is very logical.
Sorry for hijacking your thread, Scaredmom, we will continue this discussion somewhere else!
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Enn

Hi Scaredmom,
How are you doing?
I do hope you are felling better overall. 

Best wishes for the doctor’s appointment. Is i this coming week or the next?
xx

When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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