F.E.A.S.T's Around The Dinner Table forum

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NELLY_UK
Ok so I have been around this forum for over 8 years. My d now 20 has had bulimia, voices, anxiety, severe depression for 8 years now. She just about manages to work. She also drinks too much at weekends and I don’t know what else may go on.
She is on 60mg fluoxetine and has recently had a flare up of excema so was prescribed a steroid - 10mg a day for 5 days max. Most common side effect of this is mood swings, suicidal thoughts, depression.
She has had 3 days worth.
Tonight she had a few glasses of wine at a Christmas reception. Two hours later she is suicidal. So we called an ambulance as instructed. She was head banging and trying to jump from a window. We had to stop her hurting herself. The ambulance didn’t come. It was desperate. We phoned again and were advised to call the police. Two of us were trying to stop her head banging and jumping. We all got hurt in the struggle.
The police arrive and taped her hands together and arrest her for assault to which she went bonkers. Thrashing spitting it was ugly.
She was carted off in a prison van and is now in a cell.
She was screaming she would kill herself as soon as she could.
Over and over. I want to die.
She has been arrested. She was not given a psychiatric assessment straight away. That service is 9-5 probably.
The police want statements from us regarding the assaults. They are not interested in the suicide attempts. Nor the struggle to keep her in the house safe until help arrives.
Mental health is a crime.
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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Kali
Nelly this sounds dreadful and horrible and I am sad for all of you. I don't know how the UK system works but in the US there is something called a 72 hour hold where an individual who is suicidal / out of control / a danger to themselves or others/ can be held in a hospital even against their wishes (not a jail cell) and evaluated on an emergency basis. Can you go down to that police station and get her out and have her taken to a psychiatric hospital instead for an eval? If you refuse to press charges don't they have to let her go? Can you call a lawyer who is familiar with mental health issues if you need to? Is there a mental health crisis team somewhere near you you can get in touch with?

Can she discontinue the steriod she was given and find a different medication which can sooth the excema?

Maybe some of the UK folks will have some practical suggestions for you.

So sorry,

Kali
Food=Love
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NELLY_UK
Hi Kali,
I was at my wits end, still am. We cannot remove her from a cell as it is ‘none of our business’ and it’s now a police matter. We refused to give a statement unless she is assessed mentally, but they have decided she is under the influence of something so don’t have to get anyone yet.
They didn’t ask if she is on any medication at all. They are unaware of the whole picture. All we can do is hope that if and when she sees a mental health person- if she does, she asks for help and tells them she is suicidal. If she is desperate to get out of the cell, she will probably be capable of saying the right things to get out, then do it again.
She is quite far from home with no means of getting back and is in her pyjamas. The nearest police cell is an hour away by car.
It possibly would have been a different outcome if an ambulance had arrived first.
There was something on the news saying a mental health nurse went out with police to calls like ours to make sure the right approach is taken. That didn’t happen.
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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tina72
Hi Nelly,

I agree with Kali, you should contact a lawyer. And I would tell police asap in a written note that your d has mental health issues and is taking meds and needs to see a mental health professional asap. I would send it via email, fax or other ways so you have a proof that you have informed them if you need that.

Sorry to hear that you need to fight such difficulties. It is not your ds fault nor yours. Her brain is insane. You needed to ask for help in that case. It was very unprofessional that ambulance was so late and police took over with not contacting ambulance then.

Tina72
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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teecee
When I rang the ambulance I got into a heated exchange with the dispatcher about why I hadn’t called police instead. I told her my daughter needed medical help and was not a criminal. When the ambulance finally arrived they were lovely and said I’d done the right thing.
In order to prosecute the police need a complaint (in statement form). You have to give this of your own free will hence they may try to pressure you but you do not have to provide a statement. Without this they will not be able to progress the case to court and will end up releasing her. Only in extreme circumstances do the do victimless prosecutions (eg: domestic violence cases).
I would definitely go online to the force website and compile a message to the officer in the case explaining the situation and that your D has medical issues and needs assessing whilst in custody. I’m sddition I would also ring the custody sergeant. He or she are independent from the case and are solely responsible for welfare of detainees. They would be not gamble on neglecting detainees welfare especially if you state you have already contacted the force in writing to make them fully aware of her welfare needs.
Virtual hugs. X
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KLB
So, I asked my brother in law (paramedic) and he said it's very difficult for the police to remove someone from a private dwelling using the mental health act, hence why they never seem to do it properly. Instead they make poor decisions to avoid having to do it in the complicated but correct way.

What should have happened, if they were aware your d was experiencing an acute mental health crisis, was a request for medical and mental health professionals to attend to fully assess her medically and then an application to use Section 135 of the mental health act to take her to a place of safety for further mental health assessment within 24-72 hours. Ideally, a place of safety is not a police station either. Only a mental health professional can make that application.

I would consider asking for clarification on what exactly they arrested her for and why they did not consider using their powers under the mental health act. If that answer is not satisfactory, I'd think about making a complaint. Also, in the crisis that she was in she's likely to have lacked the capacity to understand and make rational decisions, which also gives powers to ambulance crews to act in the best interests of the person in question under the mental capacity act.

I would hope that by now, they have requested full medical and mental health assessments to be completed.

Edited to add......if she wasn't in a private dwelling but in a public place (not sure from your post where she was) they could have used Section 136 of the mental health act to take her to a place of safety for further mental health assessment but should have git a medical professional to assess her first. Either way an ambulance should have attended.
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teecee
The police can actually use powers under Mental Capacity Act in private or public but I would be surprised if they know that as they tend to rely on Mental Health Act which they can’t use in a private dwelling...crisis team have to be called to intervene in those situations.
My guess is they’ve arrested for assault but either way now she is in custody they must deal with her vulnerabilities as a priority over the investigation.
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KLB
teecee wrote:
The police can actually use powers under Mental Capacity Act in private or public but I would be surprised if they know that as they tend to rely on Mental Health Act which they can’t use in a private dwelling...crisis team have to be called to intervene in those situations.
My guess is they’ve arrested for assault but either way now she is in custody they must deal with her vulnerabilities as a priority over the investigation.


Although the police can use the mental capacity act they can only use it in immediately life threatening situations and it doesn't give them powers to remove from a private dwelling in non-immediately life threatening situations. In Nelly's situation they could have used restraint under the MCA and then would have to revert to using the mental health act and getting an AHP out to the scene. Also decisions on capacity or lack thereof the police usually defer to a health professional to make that decision and the MCA code of conduct implies that's what should happen.

It's such a complicated process!
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deenl
Nelly,

I am outraged, heartbroken but not surprised at this poorly executed incident. I hope with all my heart your daughter manages to get to a safe place.


Sending strength and courage your way,

D




Fellow FEASTies,

I love the knowledgeable and practical tips you have been able to pass on.

D
2015 12yo son restricting but no body image issues, no fat phobia; lost weight IP! Oct 2015 home, stable but no progress. Medical hosp to kick start recovery Feb 2016. Slowly and cautiously gaining weight at home and seeing signs of our real kid.

May 2017 Hovering around WR. Mood great, mostly. Building up hour by hour at school after 18 months at home. Summer 2017 Happy, first trip away in years, food variety, begin socialising. Sept 2017, back to school FT first time in 2 years. [thumb] 2018 growing so fast hard to keep pace with weight
  • Swedish proverb: Love me when I least deserve it because that's when I need it most.
  • We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence Recovery, then, is not an act but a habit. Aristotle.
  • If the plan doesn't work, change the plan but never the goal.
  • We cannot control the wind but we can direct the sail.
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Torie
Nelly, I don't know what to say.  All along the way, your d has had the worst luck with the "professionals."  Takes my breath away - can't imagine how it is for you there on the ground.  Over and over and over and over she has been failed or worse by those entrusted to care for the ill and vulnerable.  I can't believe this is happening in 2018.

Best of luck in reaching a reasonable outcome.

Thinking of you. xx

-Torie
"We are angels of hope, of healing, and of light. Darkness flees from us." -YP 
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sk8r31
Sending virtual hugs and warm support for the best possible outcome for your d...to a place of safety, and with mental health assessment.

Thinking of you,
sk8r31
It is good to not only hope to be successful, but to expect it and accept it--Maya Angelou
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NELLY_UK
Thank you Feastie friends, I had a helluva day. Read and rang Mind for advice , they were brilliant and their website is excellent. D got see by a MH nurse who is based at the custody suite 12 hrs a day. She was fine when with him. He was thorough and looked into her records and was horrified at how she had been treated. He advised me to make a complaint.
My original call didn’t get forwarded as requested to the police so the ambulance call handler didn’t pass on all the details. When I rang to find out where they were andsaid it had got worse they had no idea I was talking about a MH situation.
When they were here they were more focussed on the assaults rather than her headbanging and suicidal threats. Whilst lashing out they have decided she assaulted the police officer, I really don’t know it was chaos.
They Decided she was drunk but didn’t do a blood test or breathalyser so didn’t do an assessment. They are supposed to always do that if there is a possibility of a MH issue regardless of state. The MH nurse would have section 136 her and moved her to a hospital bed
So she has been charged with assaulting a policeman. I rang a friend who is a probation officer and got a solicitor. I will talk to them Monday.
D has only just realised the implications of all this. It took me several attempts to explain.
Thank you all, the case is being heard on 14/12/ so I will keep you informed.
Hugs all round!xx
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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toothfairy
Nelly,
I saw this yesterday & I just did not know what to say.
Please know that I am thinking of you in Dublin & hoping for the best outcome.
Please keep us posted.
TF x
Food is the medicine. Recovery is possible.
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scaredmom
Nelly_UK,
What a stressful day you have had! I am glad the MH Nurse was a great help and told you to make a complaint based on what happened. Good thing they reviewed it carefully. I am very pleased you now have a solicitor. 
Sorry though about the charges. 
I hope it goes well on Monday and I hope you have a restful weekend. Please do something nice for yourself. Something indulgent and luxurious! 
Sending good thoughts to you,
XXX
Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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NELLY_UK
Lol- scared mum - I had a fab day out with an old college friend the ‘day of the disaster’- Thursday. Went to Bath Christmas market, had lunch in a posh restaurant, did a ‘hot gin’ tasting session prior to a few full hot gins- wow - who knew?! Hot gin, ginger syrup and hot water was my favourite, followed by hot sloe gin. I never realised Christmas markets are just a glorified ‘pub crawl! I should have known from the train journey there, several groups of women drinking pink champagne on the journey, or Prosecco.
Anyway, Bath as ever was beautiful and lunch was amazing.
So I had my day out before.
Beach walk later!
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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scaredmom
Oh Nelly,
That is great!
That would have been really fun!
XXX
Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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NELLY_UK
It was!!
I have learned to grab the moments of good and treasure them in between the dark times. Even the shortest of pleasures - a quiet crossword, a calm cuppa, a walk in the countryside, they all are moments of calm, respite and are free from disaster.
Those times cannot be taken away.
They help cope with the bad times, which hit hard the evening I returned from my fabulous day out.
Sometimes I am interrupted for a bit but if the situation can be contained by others I focus on the now.
It’s not selfish, it’s self care.
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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NELLY_UK
D has referred herself back into eating disorder services again. I have a meeting with their umbrella organisation Friday. If they screw it up after I have had the chance to spell it out (on flip chart) then, well , I will complain on every online website so everyone knows. Again!
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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deenl
Glad to hear of this positive step. I have my fingers crossed that everything that can go right, does go right this time. You are due a run of good luck.

Hang in there,

D
2015 12yo son restricting but no body image issues, no fat phobia; lost weight IP! Oct 2015 home, stable but no progress. Medical hosp to kick start recovery Feb 2016. Slowly and cautiously gaining weight at home and seeing signs of our real kid.

May 2017 Hovering around WR. Mood great, mostly. Building up hour by hour at school after 18 months at home. Summer 2017 Happy, first trip away in years, food variety, begin socialising. Sept 2017, back to school FT first time in 2 years. [thumb] 2018 growing so fast hard to keep pace with weight
  • Swedish proverb: Love me when I least deserve it because that's when I need it most.
  • We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence Recovery, then, is not an act but a habit. Aristotle.
  • If the plan doesn't work, change the plan but never the goal.
  • We cannot control the wind but we can direct the sail.
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scaredmom

NELLY_UK wrote:
It was!!
I have learned to grab the moments of good and treasure them in between the dark times. Even the shortest of pleasures - a quiet crossword, a calm cuppa, a walk in the countryside, they all are moments of calm, respite and are free from disaster.
Those times cannot be taken away.
They help cope with the bad times, which hit hard the evening I returned from my fabulous day out.
Sometimes I am interrupted for a bit but if the situation can be contained by others I focus on the now.
It’s not selfish, it’s self care.


Totally agree!! And sometimes I think it is self preservation![smile]

I really feel that those simple everyday calm moments are the essence of life. The "good stuff" is  so simple, really. 

I love your attitude! You go girl!
XXX

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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melstevUK
Nelly,

What an absolutely horrendous episode - I sincerely hope that the accusation of an assault against a police officer is dropped. I wonder why the ambulance never came - if only it had.  There has been so much in the news recently about police officers having to deal with mental health cases and I doubt that they have had the training.  I am not defending them in any way but it cannot be easy to move from a 'police hat' to a 'mental health hat' and even if they have had training - in their shoes I would be very reluctant to use the MHA or the MCA, because unless you are using this legislation regularly you wouldn't have the confidence to use it.  But it is utterly shocking that they did not respond to her crying that she wanted to die - surely that should have alerted them to getting even a doctor to see her.  She has been badly let down by the system on all levels.  Utterly shocking.  

I really think that our main psychiatric hospitals should have A and E departments now, so that patients with mental health crises can get seen by appropriate clinicians.  It really is time we had that.  

I am glad that d is referring herself back to the ed service, that has to be a good sign.

I really wanted to say that I suspect that d's dosage of fluoxetine is too high - in too high a dose it can make you manic and very agitated.  I would seriously consider suggesting she drops her dosage down - it stays in your system for around six weeks in any case.  I know I am possibly not typical but after one week of a double dose of 40mg I could not sleep, had crazy ideas and rapid speech and I felt worse than when I was depressed.  It was utterly awful - putting up the dosage does not necessarily make the depression go away.  If she has been on it a long time without review - I would be encouraging her to discuss this when she gets her appointment through.  I hope they see her quickly.

Well done you for taking time to enjoy yourself and have a lovely experience after such a nightmare.  
Believe you can and you're halfway there.
Theodore Roosevelt.
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mjkz
My guess is the steroids along with the alcohol led to her breakdown.  Note to self:  Don't drink while on steroids just because of things like this.  I'm glad to hear she is referring herself back to Ed services.  Maybe this experience will help her see that she needs help-more than she is getting.  Maybe this will be her "come to Jesus" moment when she realizes how sick she really is.

I'm not sure if the Prozac played a role. 60 mg is a high dose but not outside of prescribing parameters and it would all depend on how long she has been on the drug.  If she had an increase just recently with the steroids and the alcohol-could have played a part.

I would let her physician know what happened and maybe go for the topical steroid creams for the next eczema outbreak and if she has to have steroids-do your best to remind of what happened the last time she had steroids and drank alcohol on top of it.
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NELLY_UK
Hi , d has the strong excema creams but the outbreak was head to toe so she would have needed gallons of it.
Apparently the dosage of fluoxetine for bulimia is 60mg. She has been on this since the age of 13 so 7 years. It was sadly the only treatment she got other than talking which of course doesn’t work while the brain is starved.
I put in a police complaint and am waiting for the solicitor to get back to us still. Getting a bit tense here tbh.
Meanwhile her wages she got 5 days ago have all gone. A lot of bingeing, a tattoo, clothes and food.
Recently she joined a gym and got an unlimited cinema pass so two things that can keep her busy and away from binge purge activity.
She hasn’t been to the gym yet as she is too tired.
Stress is so exhausting as well as the bulimia.
Got bloods booked at last- the first appointment is 6 weeks off. The surgery can not manage weekly bloods- never could. But I just want to get her to one and an ecg is also booked. Goodness knows how long the results will take at this rate.
It’s all so SH 1T
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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NELLY_UK
Update- the eating disorder service put her on a wait list as she is non urgent. How they decide that without speaking to anyone is beyond me. So I rang them up for a quiet chat to bring them up to speed.

Having heard All the grim details from age 12 onwards, the nurse amazingly identified this was not non urgent at all but actually INCREDIBLY URGENT.
The nurse was lovely and promised to speak to someone, she seemed to realise I was at the end of my tether with the monumental years of cock ups. I think the arrest and night in a cell actually helped in this instance- how twisted is that?

I got a call and they have text d and she has an appointment for an assessment on the same day as the court case.( next Tuesday ) However, the nurse is going to speak to the court and wave her mental health flag at them in the hope they will re consider the case, or tread more carefully at least. The nurse seemed to think the case may be adjourned again or dealt with outside the court. (I will know more Monday)

So some cautious hope and slight relief even though nothing is confirmed. I have also been able to encourage d that the courts may look more favourably on the case if she attends appointments and seeks help. Some leverage at last.

I will see what Monday and Tuesday bring.
NELLY D 20 bulimic since age 12, diagnosed in 2011. 20 months useless CAMHs,7 months great IP, home March 14..... more useless CAMHs.now an adult & no MH services are involved. I reached the end of my tether, tied a knot in it and am hanging on. ED/Bulimia treatmentis in the dark ages in West Sussex.
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Foodsupport_AUS
I am so pleased that at last you feel you have some signs of support. Absolutely it is likely to be leverage for you.  Hopefully this is a move in the right direction for you all at last. 
D diagnosed restrictive AN June 2010 age 13.5. Weight restored July 2012. Relapse and now clawing our way back. Treatment: multiple hospitalisations and individual and family therapy.
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