F.E.A.S.T's Around The Dinner Table forum

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LaraB

Hi can anyone tell me the evidence behind why one should not have a protracted fast overnight. I know it sounds obvious. Big issues with chaotic routine here. 

My D currently has up to 16 hours between her last snack at night until she eats next day. I am worried that this fast is contributing to her weight loss ( as well as of course the challenge then to eat enough during the day). Is the fasting itself causing fat breakdown? Thanks

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Foodsupport_AUS
The evidence for intermittent fasting as a weight loss tool is much more about - if you can eat unlimited during the eating time but then fast for longer periods, most people will just eat till they are comfortable, so ultimately you are likely to eat less - ie. lose weight. So the biggest thing for your D is likely to be she is not eating as much. 
Even on very low carbohydrate/ketotic type diets it generally takes a few days to reach significant ketosis - ketosis is when the body starts to use fats for fuel, so it is unlikely this long time without food is burning fat more, it just makes it hard to get it all in, plus of course she is likely to get hangry at times. 
D diagnosed restrictive AN June 2010 age 13. Initially weight restored 2012. Relapse and continuously edging towards recovery. Treatment: multiple hospitalisations and individual and family therapy.
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mamabear
I couldn’t let my daughter go longer than about 9 hours max. It was too hard to get enough food in otherwise.  I got into the habit on weekends and in the summer of waking her up really early it to spoon feed her 1200 cal oatmeal so she could go back to sleep. I’d usually give ur to her around 6am. 
Persistent, consistent vigilance!
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LaraB
Thanks both. X
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Enn
LaraB wrote:

Hi can anyone tell me the evidence behind why one should not have a protracted fast overnight. I know it sounds obvious. Big issues with chaotic routine here. 

My D currently has up to 16 hours between her last snack at night until she eats next day. I am worried that this fast is contributing to her weight loss ( as well as of course the challenge then to eat enough during the day). Is the fasting itself causing fat breakdown? Thanks



Interesting question. Of course there is glycogenolysis over night after 15 hours of fasting and so the liver glycogen stores are depleted. Then when we eat it gets restored.  And the ketosis that Foodsupport notes and wt loss etc..
I want to understand your questions better. What information specifically are you looking for? I have a few ideas, but want to ensure I understood you properly. I am thinking about growth hormone and cortisol changes as well. 
When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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Enn
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/fasting
Look at the far right side of this page. 

Also fasting for longer periods of time, does dampen the huger signals so that one can go for longer and longer times not eating, making restriction less uncomfortable.
Here is another link. The physiology is accurate. The summary of benefits makes me sick. So take that with a pound of salt. 
https://www.zerofasting.com/the-physiology-of-fasting/
When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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LaraB

Thanks Enn. My D is really struggling with lack of routine in lockdown. She won’t get up until the afternoon 12.30 to 2pm. She has not been following her meal-plan for several weeks and is serving herself except dinner which I still am able to serve her. She is not eating enough, and is losing weight. 

Her psychologist is trying to get her to re-introduce a meal routine. We moved from trying to focus on getting her up to trying to establish some structure around meals and snacks in a reduced number of hours as she gets up so late. 

She is struggling to eat enough during the day and I was wondering whether additionally the fact that she is fasting for so long everyday is having a negative effect on her health as well as of course her appetite. I was thinking of the body breaking down fats, weight loss, her heart health. I was wondering to what extent I need to prioritise trying to get the team to “insist” that she has breakfast using medical arguments.  

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Enn
Got it. 
The team should know that the longer one goes without food the less hungry they will be. That is a good medical argument as that will make it harder for her to eat. Also there are meds that people need to take at certain times of the day that "just has to happen" like antibiotics for a severe infection, we cannot just miss a dose and expect the infection to get better. Same with pain meds, I could go on and on, but you get it. 
When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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LaraB
Thank you @Enn.  really appreciate the references and insights.  Helps me mull through next steps. Xxx
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Kali
Hi LaraB,

We are also on this kind of a crazy schedule during lockdown. D gets up at 12ish like your d. Then she has breakfast. Then lunch at around 4:30-5.
Then I make dinner at about 9-10pm. Then she stays up until the middle of the night, 3 ish or so. So it is not ideal, you are right there is a long time between the last meal at night and breakfast the next day. But she is eating 3 good meals during the time she is awake. Can you focus on making sure your d. has those three good meals? And then maybe try to adjust her sleep schedule by waking her an hour earlier each day?

On the other hand, while I was in the midst of refeeding I used to wake my d. up for breakfast and then tell her she could go back to sleep afterwards.
But still, if she had her last snack at 8-9pm, and woke up at 9 am, there were still 12-13 hours where she did not eat.

warmly,

Kali
Food=Love
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LaraB
Thanks Kali. Yes we need to work towards the 3 good meals. We are really only on one good meal and then snacks at mo. Will take some time. I am glad you have found a schedule that suits in these crazy times. X
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MKR
Hi @LaraB,

Can you make it a rule for your daughter that it's either getting up earlier or having more food (I know it's hard to enforce at the moment). A bit like giving a toddler a choice between two options only.  Chances are she would choose waking up.
Mum's Kitchen

14-y-o "healthy living" led to AN in 2017 and WR at 16. Current muscle dysmorphia.
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LaraB
@MKR thanks for suggestion. We have fairly significant issues here with struggling with rules and boundaries. I am sure everybody does to greater and lesser extents. I have not been able to make progress using a “rules approach” recently. Currently trying to connect with D so she is more open to the support she needs. X
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Torie
In your shoes, I would be inclined to take breakfast to her at a normal breakfast hour.  She does not need to come to the table, but she does need to eat.  It sounds like ED is creating a loophole that makes it difficult / impossible to get enough calories in during the hours ED is making your d available. 

To me, the logical solution is to establish the mealtimes yourself instead of letting ED call the shots about when the first meal of the day can be.   As Mamabear said, she can roll over and go back to sleep after eating if she want to.  xx

-Torie
"We are angels of hope, of healing, and of light. Darkness flees from us." -YP 
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