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sunny6
We are over 2 years in.  Our child continues to struggle with behaviors although weight has been relatively stable.

Our child is very frustrated as we have discussed not purchasing a vehicle and have discussed not being able to leave for college if they cannot return to independent eating and stopping the behaviors.  They tell us that this is not support.

They are starting to refuse to make up items when food is gotten rid of and have threatened to stop going to therapy.  They claim our support isn't working when we require the food to be made up.  There is no arguing that will ever resolve this as there is no logic.

We have also discussed coming out of school when weight drops below a point and treatment centers if it goes below another range.  We do discuss no school the next day when food is not re-eaten and they claim we can't do that if they are in range.  We explain that if you cannot feed yourself to give your body what it needs then there is no school.

While they claim they want to get better, they are quick to blame me for them still using behaviors because I trigger them.  However, there are no specifics beyond that I make it worse when I catch a behavior, address it and require that the missed food be eaten.

We regularly check sinks, clothes, and bedrooms for food and vomit.  They claim that we cannot do that as it invades privacy although we explain that we have a right as this is our plumbing and we don't want bugs in the home.

We have seen multiple specialists and have been told we are either right where we need to be or just above.  They are certainly at a point where they should be able to transition into Stage 2.  We agree that the state is not there and everytime we start to improve, everything gets worse.  They don't know their weight, but somehow everything gets worse.  Our child struggles when they fall out of range to see that losing 2 kg is a bad thing, but certainly gaining 2 kg is awful to them.

So, here in all of that, I ask..what does support look like in your house?  When they refuse to eat or make up food, how do you get them to eat?  How do you convince them to do this on their own?  If taking stuff away doesn't work and allowing them to do all the things a teenager wants to do but eating away from the house doesn't work, how do we motivate?

We have tried to walk away and say when you go below your range, we step in.  It only takes a few weeks.  I realize that is progress, but it seems so slow and then there is always a big argument to get them turned back around.  It is hard on everyone.

Is that the approach we should take, you are in range and we give you all this freedom and then when you fall out, we fully step in?  We tried for so long to only allow lunch away to see if they could handle it with drains closed and all food watched and we are exhausted as that doesn't appear to work.

What do we do now that they are refusing to make up lost food even though they agreed that if we approached it a certain way, they would eat it?

There is just so much resistance for someone who says they want to get better and is working on it everyday.  We cannot seem to connect and the therapist doesn't offer an real way to get there.
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ValentinaGermania
sunny6 wrote:

Our child is very frustrated as we have discussed not purchasing a vehicle and have discussed not being able to leave for college if they cannot return to independent eating and stopping the behaviors.  They tell us that this is not support.

They are starting to refuse to make up items when food is gotten rid of and have threatened to stop going to therapy.  They claim our support isn't working when we require the food to be made up.  There is no arguing that will ever resolve this as there is no logic.


That is ED talk. Maybe you could ask what she thinks support should look like? Leave her alone and start starvation again? For sure not.
If she threatens to stop going to therapy I would reply that this will mean to stop all living at once. No school, no friends, no outings, no nothing.

sunny6 wrote:
We have also discussed coming out of school when weight drops below a point and treatment centers if it goes below another range.  We do discuss no school the next day when food is not re-eaten and they claim we can't do that if they are in range.  We explain that if you cannot feed yourself to give your body what it needs then there is no school.


You are doing great with that. You are the parent, you set rules. But please stick to your words and do that or ED will learn that you do not do what you announce...

sunny6 wrote:
While they claim they want to get better, they are quick to blame me for them still using behaviors because I trigger them.  However, there are no specifics beyond that I make it worse when I catch a behavior, address it and require that the missed food be eaten.

We regularly check sinks, clothes, and bedrooms for food and vomit.  They claim that we cannot do that as it invades privacy although we explain that we have a right as this is our plumbing and we don't want bugs in the home.


How can you trigger that? If that is a trigger when you adress ED behaviour and ask them to stop it, that is no trigger, that is necessary. It shows how powerful the ED still is that you need to discuss that at all!
And there is no privacy for someone that is in risk for ED behaviour. If she wants her privacy back, she needs to proof she is in recovery. State, not weight.

sunny6 wrote:
We have seen multiple specialists and have been told we are either right where we need to be or just above.  They are certainly at a point where they should be able to transition into Stage 2.  We agree that the state is not there and everytime we start to improve, everything gets worse.  They don't know their weight, but somehow everything gets worse.  Our child struggles when they fall out of range to see that losing 2 kg is a bad thing, but certainly gaining 2 kg is awful to them.

So, here in all of that, I ask..what does support look like in your house?  When they refuse to eat or make up food, how do you get them to eat?  How do you convince them to do this on their own?  If taking stuff away doesn't work and allowing them to do all the things a teenager wants to do but eating away from the house doesn't work, how do we motivate?


Sounds like she needs more weight and brain recovery did not start up to now.
Transition to phase 2 takes time and is recommened to do VERY slow. It took a year here to come from magic plate to eating most of the meals alone (I still plate lunch in the beginning of year 4 now).
She needs to gain. Can we help you brainstorming ideas how to get that weight on?
We had clear rules and a contract. We started allowing to chose a snack out of 2, then another snack, then we allowed one outing per week and so on. Gradually more freedom. When it did not work back to plating. Very strict rules and consequences. One meal or snack refused - no school the next day. No car key. That worked here.
She was allowed to make decisions about everything else but not eating. She was allowed to live a normal teenager life but only in between meals. She quickly found out that you cannot do much things in 2,5 hours to she decided to eat to be allowed to do x or y.

sunny6 wrote:
Is that the approach we should take, you are in range and we give you all this freedom and then when you fall out, we fully step in?  We tried for so long to only allow lunch away to see if they could handle it with drains closed and all food watched and we are exhausted as that doesn't appear to work.

What do we do now that they are refusing to make up lost food even though they agreed that if we approached it a certain way, they would eat it?

There is just so much resistance for someone who says they want to get better and is working on it everyday.  We cannot seem to connect and the therapist doesn't offer an real way to get there.


I would not allow all freedom and take it all back then, because that will for sure not work (she is not ready for that) and will only lead to frustration on both sides. Start with one snack and give some freedom and when she shows you that she can make a good decision and will not chose the least caloric snack that is in the house then she is ready. If not, go back to plating and give it another try with some kg more.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Scaredmom2019
Great post and response. Exactly what I also needed today. You all are amazing. Thank you. 
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sunny6
Thank you for your response.

We know our child's nutrient needs and have figured out how to get that done in a day.  The problem we have are the behaviors.  Food gets cheeked, hidden or purged even two hours later.  The behaviors tend to be worse with my spouse which has been the case from the start.  I can't be here for snack in the afternoon and that tends to be the issue.  We aren't sure lunch is eaten every day at school, but it does look like this has some.  This actually triggers major anxiety for our child if we eat lunch with them as they were bullied around this when they first were diagnosed.  We have school members watching, but as most of you know, that even those who know the illness can be tricked.  Generally, if we stop one behavior then the other starts up.

They can sit with us for 20 or 30 min and as soon as you turn your head, they pull food out from their mouth and hide it in clothes or undo the drain and purge down the sink undetected.  We also know after a few days at home without behaviors, they start to want to go out with friends and then they try to tell us what they ate.  Any time we address, we get full on rages with a lot of swearing and sometimes hitting, slamming doors, etc.  Calling the cops has mediated this some, but not fully.

Things started to really go backwards last summer.  Prior to that, there were occasional behaviors but the anger, food refusal and chatter have increased since then.  When they were initially WR two summers ago, the mindset was so much better.  But it has gradually gone backwards.

We feel like they need so much more help than what we are clearly able to do at this point.  We can't avoid working and need to take care if our jobs and other kids.
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needhelp
Hi Sunny6

I understand how challenging it is to battle ED and also have other children. The whole process is very frightening for them on so many levels. I also understand the challenge of having to keep your jobs. 

We functioned more along the lines of Valentina's post.  Quite strict - she was not allowed to drive unless she ate - because she did not have the right to put others in danger if she chose unhealthy choices. We got past a lot of the "It's my body" stuff by showcasing the effect her choices could have on others - that just worked for her personality.

Could your D have to eat lunch with the nurse at school? Probably not pleasant - but it would be upon her to decide where she eats.  Eat all her other foods and keep her weight going in the right direction for a week - then she could eat with her friends - any drop or food drama - back to the nurse for a week (or whatever you feel is appropriate).  I think, like Valentina, it helps to have the rules out there.  She can choose not to follow - but then she has chosen the consequence.  So, her predicament is not your fault - but the result of her choices.  Honestly, it won't be pleasant in the beginning - but once these types of structures become commonplace, things should move a little bit better.

Wishing you and your family much success!!
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sunny6
Hello.

Yes, we have the LSUYE rules, replacing food, no going out, no school, etc rules based on weight loss and behaviors.  Those have been on place since day 1.  Unfortunately, initially they were compliant with the rules, but in the last 9 months, has been fighting those rules.  Claiming we can't punish them for using behaviors as they can't control them.  Telling me that I am controlling them and so forth.  They cannot understand that not eating enough to maintain your body equals not getting to do all those things.  The longer we have held these rules, the more they are rebelling.  Everything has become a control game.  They have even gone around and taken things of mine to "give me an idea of what it is like" when I take away the phone for not eating.

This is where we are lost.  The rules used to work, but now, there is more aggression and this constant statement of consequences not being supportive to them.  We continually state that we do not support the eating disorder and so we are sure that this doesn't feel like support at the moment but that our long term goal is for them to be free of AN and that is why we do all the things we do.  We have related this to cancer and drug addicts and how the interventions would be no different, but to no avail.

While I know catching behaviors can be triggering for the anger and yelling, I have communicated that it is not a reason to not eat and that is the AN trying to find a loophole.

We feel like we need a new approach and yet we know that in the end, they have to eat to maintain and at times gain and we can't completely change the approach.  Just not sure if we are missing something as the narrower their world becomes the more aggressive they have become when weight is lost.
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WeRnotdone
Sunny6,
  This is the worst illness. My daughter has AN and we are going on over 2 years of treatment. She will be 18 in 2 weeks and I worry she is not ready for college. She just had a 3rd relapse from having too much freedom with her meals. First she wanted to eat lunch at school with her friends. I did not think it was a good idea however her therapist and nutritionist thought it was. My daughter still had too many ED behaviors in thinking her food is always too much. Therapist thought I would be waiting forever for her to stop that. Then she wanted to eat meals with boyfriend, then she didn’t want to eat her snacks in front of me. I knew over the holidays by her angry mental state and odd food behaviors that she was not doing what she was suppose to do. She was getting weighed weekly and no one said there was any cause for concern. I had a feeling she was chugging water before the weigh ins.
   One great thing happened in all this. One night she said she wanted to talk. She confessed that she had not been eating her morning snack since the first day of school. She had been decreasing her lunch. I knew it. I calmly asked how I could support her. She said she wanted to get her own meals and I supervise. She also wanted to start the next day eating whatever she wanted, and she actually did! So that is where we are now. We bicker about amounts. In her mind her food is always too much. She blots, wipes, spills and tosses food. I am working with her therapist and nutritionist. I will send an email update or meet with them to make sure we are all on the same page. I feel I should just plate her food but that approach doesn’t work well with my daughter anymore. She is on the low end of her weight range so there is work to do. It breaks my heart that she most likely will not be ready for college in 8 months. That is the motivating incentive college and being able to have freedom to drive and see her boyfriend. Also trying to act normal.  It’s 4 steps forward then 3 steps backward. Hang in there.
D Diagnosed with AN age 15 around 9/2017. First regression close to WW wanting to eat healthier. 2nd regression started self harm with inpatient stay for suicidal thoughts. 18 now and fighting to get out of 3rd down slide.
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ValentinaGermania
So it sounds ED has found some loopholes with less supervision and hiding and has learned that not eating IS possible.
Is there any possibility you can be at home for afternoon snack? Can you get some carer leave from work?
Is there any pssibility to keep her at home for some time x to make sure that lunch is eaten?
Can you ask her to wear just a shirt and leggings for the meals so there are no pockets?
Can you make it impossible that she can pure food down the sink? Maybe eat in a room without a sink?
I am just brainstorming ideas...ED has too much freedom at the moment, that seems to be the problem.

I fear you need to go this phase to make clear that the rules did not change and that you will fight ED whatever it takes.
Search for "extinction burst", it is quite common that the behaviour gets worse around WR and we need to push through that to see the light at the other end of the tunnel.

"When they were initially WR two summers ago, the mindset was so much better.  But it has gradually gone backwards."

Did she gain normally since then? Did she grow? It is quite possible that there is not enough weight to start brain recovery there...If she is on the same weight as 2 years ago that is too low.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Enn
I know you have tried many different things. I just thought of this article  http://eatingdisorders.ucsd.edu/research/pub/imaging/doc/2015/Kaye_TBT_AnorexiaNervosa.pdf
When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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Foodsupport_AUS
ED is great at making us feel guilty about offering the support our children need to keep eating and not doing destructive behaviours.  It can take a really long time for some, my D required supervised meals (all meals and snacks) for four years. Even after that time it was a struggle for her to feed herself well even though if "habit" has anything to do with it she should have been doing better. 

I suspect part of the issue is the disconnect between "wanting to get better" and being able to follow through on those behaviours. On a more simple idea, for example, thinking we should exercise more or stop smoking - many have the idea, we want to do it but our own behaviour and thoughts get in the way. ED has very pervasive thoughts so even harder to manage, and in a teenager who will usually be trying to be independent from their parents and resentful of adult "interference".  

It sounds like your child still needs the supervision you are providing unless they can be motivated in some way to engage better in their own treatment. The very fact that you are finding uneaten food or have evidence of purging is good evidence that the observation is needed. I suspect you have tried this - but a reward for each time that you don't find any issues?

Enn has mentioned TBT and it could be a good fit if your child says they want to get better. I know that some who have been to the program have been apparently "healthy weight" and they don't allow those who are substantially underweight. The main crux of the program is to help both carers and person with ED to get on the same team which sounds like it could be worth pursuing right now. 
D diagnosed restrictive AN June 2010 age 13. Initially weight restored 2012. Relapse and continuously edging towards recovery. Treatment: multiple hospitalisations and individual and family therapy.
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sunny6
Thank you all for your support and comments.  We do recognize the anxiety management is associated with the desire to restrict and we can see upticks in behavior around certain activities.

We recently started on some medication to hopefully reduce the anxiety and depression.  There are small improvements over the last two years, but these behaviors really are the last bit that seems to hang on.  This isn't as simple as saying no shirts with pockets.  Food is cheeked and then later removed from the cheeks and stuffed into undergarments to later be removed after their supervised time.  The drains are different then what most know and our last resort is to disconnect the plumbing and leave a bucket under the sink to catch everything.

We keep hoping that therapy will help.  The therapist understands what is going on and is slowly working on the thoughts, but it is the idea of moving thoughts and not using the behaviors.

I will spend more time on the TBT.  I think it is hard to see and hear how kids are back to normal after 6 months post WR and this is not the case here.  Somedays, I need reassurance that what we are seeing can be part of what recovery looks like and that it takes on a different pace than others.  
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Enn
sunny6 wrote:


 I think it is hard to see and hear how kids are back to normal after 6 months post WR and this is not the case here.  Somedays, I need reassurance that what we are seeing can be part of what recovery looks like and that it takes on a different pace than others.  


I truly get that!

It takes a long time. In fact most kids are not "recovered" in 6 months. What I have seen here and in my own kid, is that her thoughts and some behaviours got a lot better 6 months after WR. For us that was 9 months after Dx but that was not the end of it at all. 
I still had full control over her meals and snacks and she did hide food from me for longer than I think I know even AFTER WR+. Even last summer 2019, while she was 2 years + in she hid food. She used food ( I hope that is past tense) as a way to manage anxiety. She had girls on diets in school, going vegan and their parents joining weight watchers (don't get me started). She had anxiety about being the best in school and so she hid food. I found it! We had our blip and recovered in Sept and doing well now. At almost three years in is she "cured" or "recovered" ( I don't know how to really define those terms)? I don't know, but she knows that she has to eat and that I will find the loopholes just  as you are doing as  well.  We are currently working on managing anxiety and expectations of school work and eating through upsetting events (normal life things) that occur. I think, and I don't wish to generalize but..I think I will take that liberty today, that most of us need to do this. We figure out the food then the other mental issues. We have to  treat the whole package and for some it is more complex and for some it is a bit more straightforward. 

I am sending my best that something comes up soon that fits with your situation to move you all forward. 
XX
When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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MKR
You are so good at spotting the signs!  

I wonder if having a few sips of a drink straight after the meal would make hiding food in cheeks difficult?  Or you can make her whistle a tune... (that was my family's old strategy of keeping us youngsters from helping ourselves to the cooking when on serving duty). Or turn it into a fun guess-the-tune game to keep it light. 

Oh my, turning the drains off is an extreme measure but I think a very efficient one!  Closing loopholes everywhere. 

Hiding food still present here, too. We had cupcakes to celebrate a small event, I thought yay a fear food ticked off, then found the icing a week later in a shoe box.  So I got her to remove all hidden food from her room - or she might find ants crawling over her at night!  We do this clear-out periodically, no questions asked. And there is always more coming out than I'd expected.
Mum's Kitchen

14-y-o "healthy living" led to AN in 2017 and WR at 16. Current muscle dysmorphia.
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Foodsupport_AUS
Quote:
 I think it is hard to see and hear how kids are back to normal after 6 months post WR and this is not the case here.  Somedays, I need reassurance that what we are seeing can be part of what recovery looks like and that it takes on a different pace than others. 


I also think this is the exception rather than a likely outcome. If kids are truly back to normal 6 months after weight restoration there would be no need for monitoring, looking at relapse planning etc. There are some kids who are amazingly better, but many many more I think still have ongoing pervasive eating disorder thoughts which then of course drive the behaviours. Being at a good weight allows them to be able to work on those thoughts with psychotherapy, and medication but they do need to learn how to deal with them as ultimately they are a driver to use behaviours which in turn may allow things to spiral out of control. Some people with eating disorders are reported to get a "high"  from using them - either restriction, binging and or purging. If this is the case it would be expected for them to have urges to follow through on this from time to time. Reading people like Tabitha Farrar, Carrie Arnold or Jennifer Schafer  it is quite clear that they all made a very conscious decision to not use those behaviours down the track, that although nutrition was a part of their recovery it took time for them to decide not to do what they had been doing in the past. Younger kids often don't have the same motivation to deal with this as adults, they are more likely to follow their whims - so the best we can do as parents is arrange a structure around them to reduce the chances of follow through and allow them to learn skills to deal with the thoughts. 
D diagnosed restrictive AN June 2010 age 13. Initially weight restored 2012. Relapse and continuously edging towards recovery. Treatment: multiple hospitalisations and individual and family therapy.
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ValentinaGermania
I also want to say that I do not know any child that was back to normal within 6 months after WR. It took a year after that here to be anywhere NEAR normal and 2 years to get rid of all ED behaviour. That is avarage, some need even more time. Recovery from ED takes years.
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Barberton
May I ask an additional question here - Has your child confided in a friend and has that helped with ED behaviours when you are not able to be around? An example would be eating lunch at school. If a friend knew that they needed to eat their lunch and your child knew that they knew they needed to eat their lunch, would they eat their lunch? Because EDs live in shame and silence, I just wonder if those teens who have support/encouragement from their peers are doing better than those who go out of their way to be secretive? Is it harder for them to point the finger at you and declare how unfair you are being, when even their friends are telling them they need to eat their lunch?
D fell down the rabbit hole of AN at age 11 after difficulty swallowing followed by rapid weight loss. Progressing well through recovery, but still climbing our way out of the hole.
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MKR
Barberton wrote:
May I ask an additional question here - Has your child confided in a friend and has that helped with ED behaviours when you are not able to be around? An example would be eating lunch at school. If a friend knew that they needed to eat their lunch and your child knew that they knew they needed to eat their lunch, would they eat their lunch? Because EDs live in shame and silence, I just wonder if those teens who have support/encouragement from their peers are doing better than those who go out of their way to be secretive? Is it harder for them to point the finger at you and declare how unfair you are being, when even their friends are telling them they need to eat their lunch?


From what I know, friends and siblings find it harder to cope with any sort of overseeing/ supervising.  But you never know. On the other hand, the presence of friends can shame the child into complying, though this is usually with an adult in charge at the same time. 
Mum's Kitchen

14-y-o "healthy living" led to AN in 2017 and WR at 16. Current muscle dysmorphia.
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sunny6
Confiding in friends doesn't work.  Our kid may eat something in front of them, but not what they need to.  Even siblings know that they need to eat, but can't quantify it and certainly don't know how to stop the behaviors.  We decided early on it wasn't fair to put that responsibility on our other kids. 

Where we struggle the most is laying out consequences.  When weight goes below a threshold, then supervision is stepped up and activities are lost.  Our child views the lost of activities as punishment no matter how much we tell them if they can't feed their bodies to maintain themselves then they can't go do activities like sports, etc.  It just isn't clicking.  The arguement is always that people are allowed to lose weight and there is so much anger.  Setting up a contract didn't work either. They state they didn't agree to what would happen with weight loss so they don't have to follow it.  They are so resistant to everything we try.  We just are at a loss for how to support when there appears to be no incentive to help.  All they want is for us to leave them alone and if weight loss happens, then we can step in.  They deny that weight loss will happen and when it does, they yell at us that they don't need to follow the outcomes for x, y, and z reasons.
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Enn

I was just looking at  this article     https://www.emotionfocusedfamilytherapy.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/FBT_EFT.CPP_.pdf

as well. Again not sure if this would be appropriate for you.

When within yourself you find the road, the right road will open.  (Dejan Stojanovic)

Food+more food+time+love+good professional help+ATDT+no exercise+ state not just weight+/- the "right" medicine= healing---> recovery(--->life without ED)
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MKR
Hi @sunny6 ,

We had months of that attitude towards sports. It only went away with weight gain through feeding and ban from school sports facilities.  The teachers were briefed so we also knew when our child was spotted attempting to join a gym in town. 

Reasoning did not work. No matter how many times her dad demonstrated that a car cannot run on no fuel. She replied with examples of "skinnier" friends that are still in sport. She only just clicked recently that it's her body's propensity that reacts in this way to deficit and an energy drop. It's not your fault, you were just born fragile, darling. 

We had to stay firm on no exercise. What calmed me down is my own conscience, dreading the consequences of giving in when it comes to preventable exertion. I just wouldn't be able to live with myself if something did happen. 

It's such a sudden drop and such a long slog back to your real baby... But they are there. And will come back!
Mum's Kitchen

14-y-o "healthy living" led to AN in 2017 and WR at 16. Current muscle dysmorphia.
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ValentinaGermania
sunny6 wrote:

Where we struggle the most is laying out consequences.  When weight goes below a threshold, then supervision is stepped up and activities are lost.  Our child views the lost of activities as punishment no matter how much we tell them if they can't feed their bodies to maintain themselves then they can't go do activities like sports, etc.  It just isn't clicking.  The arguement is always that people are allowed to lose weight and there is so much anger.  Setting up a contract didn't work either. They state they didn't agree to what would happen with weight loss so they don't have to follow it.  They are so resistant to everything we try.  We just are at a loss for how to support when there appears to be no incentive to help.  All they want is for us to leave them alone and if weight loss happens, then we can step in.  They deny that weight loss will happen and when it does, they yell at us that they don't need to follow the outcomes for x, y, and z reasons.


It is in fact partly a punishment but it is ED that makes you need to do that. It is too early to expect that it clicks. Sometimes parents need to decide things that are taken as "punishment". If your 2 year old would decide to play besides a busy road you will for sure not allow that and take him back into the garden although he might feel that as "punishment". They have to follow rules in life and in school too and if not that has consequences and is no punishment. That is normal in life.

This is no argument, that other people are allowed to lose weight. Other people do not have AN. ALL AN PATIENTS are NOT allowed to lose weight. That is the company they can compare, not healthy people. No kid is allowed to lose weight by the way...it is not healthy. All kids must gain until their mid 20s.

RE contract: A contract is nothing they need to agree to. It is setting rules. You would not discuss other laws with them. They need to follow all other laws. That is life. You cannot discuss with a policeman about the parking rules. Even if you do not like the consequences. I bet they have rules in school and they must follow them. That is nothing they need to agree to. It is rules.

I feel that you maybe still discuss too much and she thinks she can decide what she wants to do.

"All they want is for us to leave them alone and if weight loss happens, then we can step in.  They deny that weight loss will happen and when it does, they yell at us that they don't need to follow the outcomes for x, y, and z reasons."

This is not logical. When they say you can step in when weight loss accurs, they cannot deny it when it happens. With that rule you can only lose. They are playing games with you...this needs to stop.
Have you already tried to think about incentives for weight gain instead of consequences for weight loss?
You could turn that around and promise to step back with ONE snack if you see a kg weight gain next week 😉...
Keep feeding. There is light at the end of the tunnel.
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