| Maria |
| | July 25, 2007 at 08:08 PM | Reply with quote | #1 |
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I see a common thread in this forum. It seems that many of you as part of the refeeding are giving your kids foods that not only do they hate but the message all around from drs to schools is that they are "bad for you" ie: cookies, cakes, ice cream, etc.
My d is eating well and without a lot of resistance. She is a health nut and her restricting comes primarily in an avoidance of anything that she considers junk or full fat. Her T told her that she was not allowed to eat non-fat dairy products but low fat was OK and reduced fat was even better. I do cheat and switch containers of choc milk, etc. Her AN started with the health food kick "to eat like mommy". Even during refeeding she continues to only want to eat those foods which she believes are healthy. Thankfully, she believes that ALL bread is good for her so I can give her buttery buiscuits and she will eat 3 of them and will eat my home made chocolate bread but refuses to eat a slice of pizza unless it is homemade by me.
As I've said b4 this has all been modeled by me though I have stopped talking about healthy food, foods that give me reactions, etc and am trying to model eating as many foods as my health allows me to do so. But that strategy is not working very well. In fact, I am currently paying for all my brave efforts trying to eat "normally" as I have had a relapse on my immune illness. So, obviously in our family this would be a "do as I say not as I do" approach.
I am very frustrated and torn here so please enlighten me. If she is putting on weight with the healthy foods that she is eating, why should we push "unhealthy" foods? Are they recovered if they still hang on to restrictions of certain foods? She is truly at the beginning of refeeding since we have only done the Parent directed Maudsley for about 3 weeks after wasting time for one year. I am so upset that we didn't have this information fully a year ago. But, we are moving forward. Today we were at the pool with friends. She had a grilled chick-fil-A sandwich with a lemonade and no fries. To complement it she had eat a bagel with double cheese when we got home. All the other kids had a full chick-fil-A meal and all chose the fried options. So, should we have said fried fillet for you too and fries or you will sit here until you eat it? I am afraid that I will get a resounding YES! from many of you.
She is socially isolated at any event dealing with food. Laura Collins' story really resonated with me when she said that her d was no longer the anorexic in the back of the room at school parties. Is "forcing" her to eat "junk" food going to help her get over her phobia of these foods?
Please give me advice on this issue.
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| md |
| | July 25, 2007 at 08:33 PM | Reply with quote | #2 |
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I'm not the best equipped to respond to your questions (which I think are good ones), but I would like to say that I don't think that a food is unhealthy just because it is full fat. Everyone needs fat in their foods.
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| choke |
| | July 25, 2007 at 08:48 PM | Reply with quote | #3 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Maria
I am afraid that I will get a resounding YES! from many of you.
Afraid, why?
Because it means having to examine your own attitudes about food?
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| Maria |
| | July 25, 2007 at 08:50 PM | Reply with quote | #4 |
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Just for the record. I totally agree with you. Part of my healthy eating includes eating full fat goat yogurt, full fat and raw cheeses, etc. My d is the one who has this phobia of full fat dairy though she will lightly butter her bread. She will also eat fried plantains or yucaa root. Like a lot of things with ANs they can be very contradictory in their belief system. I only use full fat cheeses on the home made pizza. She doesn't know this but will put a napkin or paper towel over it to soak up the grease.
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| Maria |
| | July 25, 2007 at 08:58 PM | Reply with quote | #5 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by chokeQuote: Originally Posted by Maria
I am afraid that I will get a resounding YES! from many of you.
Afraid, why?
Because it means having to examine your own attitudes about food?
There is genetically high cholesterol in my family. My husband is also on meds for high cholesterol. I happen to know that a diet high in mono and poly fats actually increases your good cholesterol and that a diet completely low in all fats in very bad for you. However, trans fats and too many saturated fats are not good for either myself, my husband or my son who also has borderline high cholesterol. I happen to know that raw dairy is very healthy for you regardless of content of fat so I don't worry about my intake of it but nobody else in the family joins me in eating raw goat yogurt or cheeses LOL.
I think this probably is a real concern for many of you but I haven't come accross yet in this forum.
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| md |
| | July 25, 2007 at 09:01 PM | Reply with quote | #6 |
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I think that one positive aspect of encouraging consumption of full-fat foods is that after a certain amount of time, your daughter will realize that she will not die immediately if she eats such foods. I know, this sounds sarcastic, but I don't mean it that way. I think there are many people who have become convinced that consumption of certain foods will lead to instant horrible results. Phobia is not an overstatement. I'm not sure what the term is for the process of dealing with phobias; is it desensitization? Anyway, the process has been shown to be effective in dealing with other kinds of phobias, and I'm sure it works with food phobias, as well. Is it possible to survive at a healthy weight without eating full fat foods? Sure. But is it enjoyable? Probably not. Many people would say that your daughter shouldn't resign herself to a life without the pleasure of full-fat foods. As for me, I'm afraid of snakes and riding on airplanes. Snakes are easy to avoid; I don't think that i need to deal with my phobia. Never flying, on the other hand, might really interfere with my pleasure in life. (So I'll be on a plane next week; wish me luck!)
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| md |
| | July 25, 2007 at 09:14 PM | Reply with quote | #7 |
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Sorry, our messages must have crossed. I think I was answering the wrong question (or one that you weren't really asking). I don't think that you and your husband and other child should have to eat foods that are medically inappropriate for you. And perhaps your daughter shouldn't either, if the cholesterol problem is genetic. But your daughter also needs to know that fat is not a demon.
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| My 19th NB |
| | July 25, 2007 at 09:37 PM | Reply with quote | #8 |
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My H also has high cholestoral. We all eat the same dinner. I cook with mainly olive oil but do not avoid other fats. We take portions in accordance with our own needs.
Also, I try to desensitize my D to feared foods. For ex., I ordered a pizza and we all sat dwon to eat it. After conflict, it was eaten. Our T said it takes 3 times to desense. This seems to be accurate as we had the pizza 3 times and each time it has been easier. Every few days, or when I have the energy, we try new things. It really works.
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| Maria |
| | July 25, 2007 at 09:39 PM | Reply with quote | #9 |
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No, you were answering my questions and your responses were good and appropriate. I guess I was rambling a bit. I like your answer. My daughter needs to be desensitized to the fact that, like you said, she will not die if she eats a scoop of ice cream. My h and s do have the ocassional McD meal even with the high cholesterol issue, so it stands to logic that my d should be able to do that even if it is once in a while. However, she asks "why do I have to eat such and such when nobody else has to? My answer has been "because you are underweight and s, h and me are not". Is that a good answer? We have to take junk food away from s because he loves it, so we are saying to him "too much of this is not good for you" while saying to her "we want you to eat this".
She knows that we don't eat those foods because of health issues and is now having to accept the fact that foods that are not healthy for the rest of the family are somehow healthy for her. She constantly brings that up YET I know that she won't put on weight unless she eats those high fat foods.
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| A Formerly Worried Mom |
| | July 25, 2007 at 10:15 PM | Reply with quote | #10 |
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We did not find it practical to have our d eat differently from the rest of the family, certainly not during initial refeeding. We all ate what she ate, which included plenty of ice cream, cookies, lasagna, etc. In the beginning we ate as much as she did, too, though her need for us to match her bite for bite slacked off over time. But I think you can't give two different messages about the same food to an anorexic who is in refeeding. Later on, when she is rational again about food, she will be able to appreciate different needs for different people. But probably not now.
If you look at the literature on cholesterol you will see that dietary changes don't tend to alter it significantly. In fact I seem to recall hearing that if you cut down your cholesterol intake, your body just makes more, or some people's bodies do. So you might do a little research there and consider easing up on the cholesterol prohibitions for everyone to help your d through refeeding.
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| Lisa |
| | July 25, 2007 at 10:25 PM | Reply with quote | #11 |
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There is a huge difference between not eating a food because of a health issue (such as high cholesterol or an immune disease) and not eating it because of AN thoughts. Your daughter's young, but it might help her to know that every member of your family has a health challenge that requires making food choices. Her challenge is to become more comfortable with all foods and to know (eventually) that eating high fat/sugar foods won't hurt her in moderation. Your goal as a family is for everyone to be as healthy as possible and, in the case of food, that means you each have different requirements. I believe it's counter productive for you to eat foods that make you sick, because it's bad modeling for her. Optimum health for everyone's the goal. That said, I wouldn't have forced the issue of fries, especially in public. Baby steps are steps and just being around people who are enjoying them is good modeling.
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| AFWM |
| | July 25, 2007 at 10:41 PM | Reply with quote | #12 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lisa
I believe it's counter productive for you to eat foods that make you sick, because it's bad modeling for her.
So how does it help her to model fear of high-fat foods?
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| Lisa |
| | July 25, 2007 at 10:47 PM | Reply with quote | #13 |
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Hi,
I don't think I said to model fear of bad foods. I'm sorry if it came out that way. I thought I said all food in moderation is good, but some people have specific food allergies or health issues, such as salt sensitive high blood pressure.
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| Lisa |
| | July 25, 2007 at 10:51 PM | Reply with quote | #14 |
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Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. Maria has an auto immune disease that flares up when she eats certain foods. She's been trying to eat those foods so that her daughter would eat them, too. I was saying that for Maria eating those foods is not healthy and not good modeling. It's not a fear of high fat foods, but eating something that literally endangers health. Am I making sense or am I still not explaining myself well?
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| AFWM | |
| Maria |
| | July 26, 2007 at 09:05 AM | Reply with quote | #16 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lisa
There is a huge difference between not eating a food because of a health issue (such as high cholesterol or an immune disease) and not eating it because of AN thoughts. Your daughter's young, but it might help her to know that every member of your family has a health challenge that requires making food choices.
I agree with baby steps. It seems that for some families it works best to bring it all at the same time, ice cream, donuts, etc every day at every meal. But for others it is simply not going to work to do it that way. Our T had wanted her to eat a challenging food per week but we compromised so it was a joke. She said "pizza this week", but she balked so I made it for her while h and s ate Papa Johns and I ate something else. The following week it was ice cream but d wanted frozen yogurt instead because ice cream is too sweet. So I showed her that frozen yogurt had MORE sugar than ice cream. Now I know you don't try to explain things logically to ANs.
At any rate, we WILL do the once a week challenge and she WILL have to eat that challenge food at home, one slice or scoop at the time. Hopefully, she will lose the phobia of eating those foods over a period of time.
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| Bridget |
| | July 26, 2007 at 07:13 PM | Reply with quote | #17 |
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Hi Maria - sounds to me like you are doing a wonderful job. One of the main strengths of Maudsley is that each family works out how things will work best for them.
When we started Maudsley our d had been ill with AN for a year and her AN induced OCD was so strong that any change to her diet or routine made her almost uncontrollable and sometimes suicidal. Although we knew it was not ideal, we refed her with quite a repetative diet but it was balanced and did contain a healthy level of fats and oils. We suspect the lack of variety may have slowed her recovery to some degree but we did as much as we felt we (and she) could handle at the time. When she had been at her healthy weight for about 4-5 months she quite suddenly began to eat much more freely and now eats and enjoys everything with the family. So we got there in the end, if not by the most ideal road.
So glad you are seeing weight gain and the food challenges sound excellent.
take care
Bridget
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| kat2 |
| | July 27, 2007 at 04:17 AM | Reply with quote | #18 |
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This thread raises a very important issue.
For us, our d has always been a very healthy eater. As a toddler, she would sit at the dinner table reaching for lettuce (we had our own garden and often had fresh lettuce with our dinner) and fussing until she got it. She refused pizza, chocolate, potato chips (except doritos), hamburgers, french fries, and many other 'junk foods' long before any ED. She never obsessed over calories or weight, she simply liked a lot of foods that many people refer to as healthy. To be honest, much of my side of the family is like that.
The reason I bring this up is that, in refeeding, it seemed ridiculous (to us) to push 'junk' foods upon her because she (not her ED) sincerely didn't enjoy them. At the same time, to weight restore we couldn't require her to eat 3500cal worth of veggies per day either. So we compromised. We found higher calorie foods she had enjoyed before hand. Lots of cheese, casseroles, ranch dressing, rich sauces, mayo, eggs, EVOO, etc.
Thank goodness she loved vanilla ice cream, taco salads and kfc as well. lol
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| Harriet |
| | July 27, 2007 at 08:10 AM | Reply with quote | #19 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by kat2
She refused pizza, chocolate, potato chips (except doritos), hamburgers, french fries, and many other 'junk foods' long before any ED.
Very important point: These are not junk foods. They are foods that taste good and contain nutrients--some more, some less. There's no such thing as a "bad" food. All things eaten in moderation is the key to a healthy, balanced, and sustainable diet.
It's very important not to buy in to the current fatphobic hysteria. Your body and brain need fat to survive. Things that taste good and contain fat are not junk foods.
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| Maria |
| | July 27, 2007 at 09:08 AM | Reply with quote | #20 |
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Kat2
Your d seems very similar to mine in that sense. My d, even as a baby never liked sweets. She did like pot chips and fries. Like you, I am finding that it is indeed absurd for our family to "pretend" during refeeding that we eat large amounts of foods that are very high in calories but have zero (ie:sodas) to little nutritional value, what is commonly known as "junk food". Our goal (h, T and mine) is that she will see those foods for what they are, foods that you can have for fun but don't have to be part of a daily diet. T calls them "fun foods" that you eat occasionally and enjoy them! I think her description is very smart and I have switched to calling them "fun foods" as well. When she argues with me that I don't eat them and that she doesn't need them because she can get all the nutrition she needs from healthy foods, I tell her that it is true that one could go through life never eating those foods because of health reasons but not eating them because of (AN) being afraid or anxious about them is a problem to be conquered. It also ostricizes d socially because she is a pariah at events where fun food is available. Ironically, even in her beloved world of sports, "fun food" is served after games.
T and dietician suggested switching to nutrient dense foods and we have been pretty succesful at having her eat nuts, p-nut butter, cheeses, dried fruits and I put good amounts of almond or walnut oils in her fruit smoothies.
My d is phobic about "fat foods" too. This is also battle that I am fighting against to the end. I have explained to her that your body needs good fats (ok, so I have said the word "good" implying that there are "bad" fats) such as those that come from nuts, oils, even cheese, milk and yogurts. We just switched to "La Creme Yogurt" yeahhh! (I threw away the box so she would have no clue that it was full fat). As per my previous phobia of chips at the house, chips can be enjoyed at our house now, they just happen to be whole grain and come from Earth Fare. She does know that trans fats are bad because I buy everything that says "trans fat free" (ie: hyper-cholesterolimia in the family).Still, for our parties I buy Lays because it is a fun food that everyone can enjoy besides being cheaper. Right now she doesn't even eat my organic chips right now. Because of health reasons I buy a large amount of our foods at Earth Fare or fresh farmer markets. Her AN has used even that as an obsession. She knows that EF is "corn syrup free". I have to laugh so that I don't get sad about it.
Harriett, I understand where you are coming from. I deeply regret every argument, fight and issue I made out of h eating cheetos and drinking sodas and giving those foods to the kids. I think if we switched the mentality of "junk/bad for you foods" to "fun foods" that you eat ocassionally our ED kids would have less trouble with them and on the opposite end of the spectrum we wouldn't have the obesity and diabetes II epidemy in this country. Why are we such an all or nothing society? Why can we just preach moderation?
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| Harriet |
| | July 27, 2007 at 10:07 AM | Reply with quote | #21 |
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Maria,
I understand where *you* are coming from too.
My point was especially that foods like pizza and hamburgers have tons of nutrition in them and can hardly be considered junk food in any way. And I agree that even foods with no nutritive value (Lays) have a role in our diets and serve a purpose. We are hard wired to enjoy the taste of fat for good reasons. |
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| kat2 |
| | July 27, 2007 at 10:51 AM | Reply with quote | #22 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by HarrietQuote: Originally Posted by kat2
She refused pizza, chocolate, potato chips (except doritos), hamburgers, french fries, and many other 'junk foods' long before any ED.
Very important point: These are not junk foods. They are foods that taste good and contain nutrients--some more, some less. There's no such thing as a "bad" food. All things eaten in moderation is the key to a healthy, balanced, and sustainable diet. It's very important not to buy in to the current fatphobic hysteria. Your body and brain need fat to survive. Things that taste good and contain fat are not junk foods.
We used (and continue to use) plenty of fat in refeeding and in our daily diets.
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| Linn |
| | July 27, 2007 at 03:50 PM | Reply with quote | #23 |
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Such an interesting thread! Boy I hope I'm not screwing things up with my approach. This is my attitude towards food these days. When my daughter was diagnosed with bulimia, I took a look at my own attitudes about food and realized how disordered we all were in our eating. We rarely ate as a family, the frig and cabinets were full of processed foods, and I there was little food satisfaction in the family. I've struggled my whole life with being overweight and years and years ago I gave up the struggle, vowing never to go on one more diet.
I decided that I had been a very bad role model to my daughter in my relationship with food and that she was probably very afraid of turning out like me. But I knew I needed a healthy structure to realign my thinking, so I joined WW. Out went the overly processed foods and in came all the beautiful food, organic meats, fruits and vegetables, but I also bought real butter and cream, delicious nuts and creamy cheeses.
I disagree with WW in their push for prepackaged, low fat, artificial foods (they sell a lot of this stuff), so I just ignore that part of the program. What I have liked very much is their approach that there is no bad food - that cake and cookies and treats can be integrated very nicely into a healthy food plan. This was big for me. I never ate those things without feeling guilty.
Now a year later, I've lost 57 pounds but more importantly I have a fabulous relationship with food. I've made purchasing, cooking, serving and eating food an art form of sorts. I've become very interested in the ethical choices we made about where we get our food from, joining the locavore movement and trying to get our food locally (in the US, our food travels on average 1500 miles to our plate and there are more calores expended in transporting food as there is in the food itself!).
I think there is a real disconnect in modern society about the food we eat and I think there is a lot of anxiety, confusion and sadness in our relationship with food.
And even though I'm eating carefully these days to slowly lose the huge amount of weight I put on, I have made eating a lovely thing to do. These days there is typically a pot of soup on the stove, and meals always start with the finest, freshest ingredients. There are wonderful aromas wafting out of my kitchen and our "junk food" is homemade banana bread or chocolate cake made with real butter and Sharfenberger and Callebut chocolate. When I eat ice cream, I eat Haagen Daaz (none of that fake stuff for me), but a careful amount. I want my daughter to see that all these wonderful foods have a place in her life.
We gave up fast food years ago after reading Fast Food Nation (really disturbing) and I don't believe that fast food is something that any of us should consume. I am also very concerned about HFCS (high fructose corn syrup) and the detrimental effects it has on people - we try and not buy anything with processed corn products in it.
That said, I also don't believe in being extreme! If someone bought a store bought cake to my house I would have no problem enjoying it, and when we go out to dinner, we don't over analyze what we're eating.
My daughter has gotten picky about what she will eat and not eat. I think my goal for her is that she eat whatever the family eats. I'm encouraging her to cook with me, express herself creatively in making fabulous food from beautiful ingredients and eating what she makes. Lately I've been putting up the harvest and bringing cases and crates of fruits and vegs from the farmer's market that need to be canned and frozen for the winter. We've been making fabulous berry preserves and eating them with crostini and goat cheese (she loves this). By being connected to the food; planning it, buying it with care, cooking it with enjoyment - all of this makes the food that much more satisfying. I don't think she would have eaten jam with cheese and crostini normally. But she became invested in its creation and as a result she felt comfortable with it and rolled her eyes in ejoyment of it.
Does this make sense? I think Americans especially ARE disfunctional in our relationship to food, the planet, the land, the animals that we eat. I am trying to eat more authentically and with true enjoyment and share the enjoyment with my family.
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| Maria |
| | July 27, 2007 at 09:51 PM | Reply with quote | #24 |
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Linn:
You are preaching to this singer in the choir of wholesome and healthy eaters. Suffice it to say that I buy my wheat grain from Wheat Montana, mill it and make my own bread. I also subscribe to most of the things that you have expressed.
HOWEVER, this is where the chickens of social/political beliefs about food came home to roost for me. My d has a life threatening illness where the very beliefs that I have held and practiced so dearly are twarted and twisted in her mind for the purpose of destroying herself. My purpose was not primarily to save the environment or eat animals humanely. It was so that my family would be the healthiest they could possibly be. I always said "you are what you eat". I have finally come to terms with the fact that she would have developed AN at some point in her life no matter what my beliefs about food were. Nevertheless, these teachings about food are her war cry in this fight. She "hates" me when we battle because she sees me as a traitor, someone who trained her in these ways and now changed my mind and turned against her.
Today, I heard from the mouth of my d the mantras that I, her Peds, media, school etc have drilled into her head for years, as I was insisting that she MUST eat ice cream. At this point, I wouldn't care where/what/when/how/ who she eats. If she told me that she wanted McD's for lunch every day I would drive her there myself if it meant that she would get well and if that was the "panacea" that would kill the monster inside her head. A wonderful clean, environmentally responsible lifestyle mean nothing if mental illness with the potential of death hovers around our family every day.
No, I have not given up on my core system of beliefs. I still deep down believe that in an ideal existence we should all eat the way that you describe. But I have stopped pushing those ideals on my family, quietly practice them for myself, continue providing as much wholesome foods as I can but have opened up our home to many other foods, and encouraged a lot more eating out in places that I would have never been caught dead b4. I am doing this with an open mind and heart and in a non-judgmental way.
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| sunflower |
| | July 27, 2007 at 10:30 PM | Reply with quote | #25 |
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I relate to what you're saying, Maria. My son never had sugar or white flour until he was 3. I raised him on seet potatoes, brown rice, and Nancy's plain yogurt. Now I hear myself begging him to eat a candy bar! It's seems so ironic, but facing this makes clear what our priorities are. There's really nothing left to do but keep our kids alive.
sunflower
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| Amelia. |
| | July 28, 2007 at 05:36 AM | Reply with quote | #26 |
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In my opinion, phobias of 'junk foods' is just part of the eating disorder. It is one thing choosing to avoid these foods for health reasons and because you enjoy freasher foods but it is another thing avoiding these foods because you are 'scared' of them.
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| kat2 |
| | July 28, 2007 at 06:26 AM | Reply with quote | #27 |
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It comes down to using different tools for different problems. I would use a wrench to pound in a nail, so I didn't use lettuce when my daughter's body required more protein. There is a time and a place for every tool... |
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| kat2 |
| | July 28, 2007 at 06:34 AM | Reply with quote | #28 |
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that should say "wouldn't use a wrench" |
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| Linn |
| | July 28, 2007 at 08:41 AM | Reply with quote | #29 |
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Yes, so true! My point was that I'm working to rekindle an appreciation of really fine food in my daughter so that eating is creative and joyful and non stressful, not just grimly getting calories. I see glimmers of that, especially when I can get her to cook with me and I never use low fat or diet products. Perhaps because she's bulimic and not anorexic, she is less oppositional to eating, although having said that, left to her own devices, she would restrict and eat just diet food if given that opportunity. She is normal weighted.
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| Megan |
| | July 28, 2007 at 10:01 AM | Reply with quote | #30 |
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My feeling is that 'junk food' is a relative term. Everyone's body is different, and therefore their nutritional needs are different. This can be especially hard for the an mind to grasp. Most of us parents don't need to gain the weight our children do. Adults are no longer growing, and therefore need less food (generally) than growing kids/teens. Getting nutrition back into their bodies is the main concern right now. I believe in feeding my D high-calorie nutritious foods, not because any foods are particularly unhealthy, but because her body is lacking these essential nutrients. Yes, I still make sure she eats 'scary' foods (chocolate, ice cream, etc) because these have important nutrients too. (Personally, I think that chocolate should have it's own place in the food pyramid 
Eating should be as enjoyable as possible, and eventually they should eat for taste preferences. I do not push foods my D has always hated, but instead go with old favorites. Recently, I have started offering my D two choices (both calorically equal) and whichever she prefers (taste-wise) she'll eat. If I notice she is becoming very rigid with her food choice, she will lose this privelige. But it's been working quite nicely.
Sorry for rambling =]
As the "checkers" commercial says "Ya Gotta Eat!" |
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| Maria |
| | July 28, 2007 at 12:01 PM | Reply with quote | #31 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Amelia.
In my opinion, phobias of 'junk foods' is just part of the eating disorder. It is one thing choosing to avoid these foods for health reasons and because you enjoy freasher foods but it is another thing avoiding these foods because you are 'scared' of them.
Yesterday, I was honestly terrified that I was making a mistake. My husband felt the same way but agreed with me that we had put our foot down and could not back down. She had such an OCD/anxiety attack after that that I thought we had messed things up badly and would find ourselves at square one today. She and I went for a 40 min bike ride in the park (an hour after she ate) and I hoped that would calm her down. But she came home and wanted to shoot hoops. I said "NO". She was inside her closet sprawled on the floor crying like a baby. We made her take a shower and then she got in our bed. I was afraid to ask her to eat supper but the phrase from Locke or Le Grange "Maudsley is for parents who are not afraid of their children" gave me the strenght to bring her mac and cheese and told her she had to eat it. She ate it and wanted to sleep with her Dad since she hated me. This morning, she woke up in a good mood and so far we have had a non-eventful day with little OCD or anxiety.
What we did yesterday may or may not have been a good idea. I'll have to discuss it with T. It may be that she needs baby steps and this is jumping off the cliff for her and we need to get her more stable and at her normal range of weight b4 pushing the feared foods. She wants to compromise and I have to figure out the pay offs versus dangers. For istance, if we push ice cream, she wants frozen yogurt. So, do we make frozen yogurt a weekly event to desensitize her to the idea/taste of it then graduate to ice cream? Anyway, yesterday's experience showed me w/o a shadow of a doubt that my d will NEVER recover from AN until she is able to eat "junk food" without fear and anxiety. We just have to be wise with the timing of re-introducing these foods.
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| B |
| | July 28, 2007 at 12:06 PM | Reply with quote | #32 |
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Fascinating conversation string - health food vs junk food! Two comments jump to mind "variety is the spice of life" and "use what works for you".
Our families experience: we used to feed "healthy" food - whole wheat, low fat, no prepackaged meals, etc. and so forth... but now our cupboards are full of instant snack foods and prepackaged meals - I hate to cook and it has been a nightmare for me to constantly be thinking of food to feed my d. My h took over the meal planning and much of the cooking during refeeding but he's been out of town a lot lately and now that she is up to weight she has actually been asking for snacks (yea!) and it takes a lot of pressure off me if I can pull something out of the cupboard and not stand in the kitchen all day.
I did have an unexpected visit by AN recently. Things have been going very smoothly and I guess I let my guard down, We have never had a schedule to introduce fear foods, we just scattered them into the menu randomly (sounds like some people on this site try for one food per week) but one day I brought home a lunch from McDs - the grilled chicken sandwich and fries went flying! I was able to salvage much of it and it was eventually eaten but I guess what I learned was not only are there "junk" foods but also "places". Apparently Subway is ok (even the choc chip cookie) but anything from McDs is "not food".
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| Maria |
| | July 28, 2007 at 12:24 PM | Reply with quote | #33 |
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O'mgosh! D was begging me to take her to Subway yesterday instead of McD's! |
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| Harriet |
| | July 28, 2007 at 12:38 PM | Reply with quote | #34 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Maria
What we did yesterday may or may not have been a good idea. I'll have to discuss it with T. It may be that she needs baby steps and this is jumping off the cliff for her and we need to get her more stable and at her normal range of weight b4 pushing the feared foods. She wants to compromise and I have to figure out the pay offs versus dangers. For istance, if we push ice cream, she wants frozen yogurt. So, do we make frozen yogurt a weekly event to desensitize her to the idea/taste of it then graduate to ice cream? Anyway, yesterday's experience showed me w/o a shadow of a doubt that my d will NEVER recover from AN until she is able to eat "junk food" without fear and anxiety. We just have to be wise with the timing of re-introducing these foods.
Maria,
What you did yesterday was take care of your daughter. It's not your d who "wants to compromise"; it's the anorexia demon inside her. When you "compromise" you are actually giving in to the disease.
By far the best and strongest course of action is to not engage in any conversation, negotiation, or compromise around food or eating. (The ice cream for the chicken crusts was OK, though, because it was trading one fear food for another rather than giving in to fear.) You're right to think about desensitization here, but what our family and many others find is that it's best to jump right in. Otherwise it can take much longer to desensitize to all the fear foods. Frozen yogurt is NOT a good substitute for ice cream--not enough calories, plus it's a "safe" food for many anorexics.
What we saw was that anytime we allowed even a little bit of negotiation or discussion around these issues, our d's anxiety shot WAY up. We thought we were being kind, not pushing her too hard too fast, etc., but in actuality we were prolonging her agony.
So my best advice to you, as someone who has been through this from start to finish (and there is a finish!), is totake the subject off the table and serve a wide variety of foods, including those fear foods. And lose the guilt or worry over whether you're pushing her too hard. Inside the wily beast is your d, and she needs you to help her. And you're doing good.
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| Amelia |
| | July 28, 2007 at 01:05 PM | Reply with quote | #35 |
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At the moment 'junk food' is still a really big issue But an explanation that my dietician uses is 'a calorie is a calorie end of' .. This means yours you can get your calories from carrots or burgers but at the end of the day they will do the same job you just have to eat more of one than the other.'
some other helpful explanations.. the calories have to come from somewhere so why not enjoy them?
To an overweight person 'low fat' is a SuperFood. To an underweight person 'high fat' is a Superfood. neither have to come from wholefoods etc but the end goal is the same = a healthy weight.
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| Harriet |
| | July 28, 2007 at 01:10 PM | Reply with quote | #36 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Amelia
But an explanation that my dietician uses is 'a calorie is a calorie end of' .. This means yours you can get your calories from carrots or burgers but at the end of the day they will do the same job you just have to eat more of one than the other.'
Actually, this is not true, and I hope your dietitian isn't saying this to your d, because she would probably interpret this as "So it's OK to get all your calories from carrots, etc."
Recovering anorexics especially need fats. And protein. And carbs.
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| A |
| | July 28, 2007 at 02:00 PM | Reply with quote | #37 |
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He also says carrots have only a few benefits and is only one food group whereas a burger has carbs, for energy, protein, for muscle growth etc. I was very basic with my explanation, sorry. I am aware that eating 100's of carrots is not exactly progress! or enjoyable for that matter. . sorry for the confusion. |
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| md |
| | July 28, 2007 at 03:18 PM | Reply with quote | #38 |
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The posts on this thread are very interesting. I'd like to add a couple of my opinions. First, as far as people with eating disorders are concerned, one should never accept at face value that the person is eating or not eating a certain food because the food is "healthy," "junk," made of "bad" ingredients, has been shipped more than 100 miles, contains high fructose corn syrup, was purchased at Whole Foods, or whatever. Almost always, a person with an ED will come up with whatever reasoning sounds best to justify eating low-calorie foods. Second, I think it's fine for healthy adults to have certain guidelines for what they eat and don't eat, whether based on health concerns, ecology, finances, or taste. But I also think that every person, except for people who are allergic to certain foods, should be flexible enough to eat outside the guidelines when necessary. One is not always going to find bread without HFCS, strawberries from a nearby farm, or food that doesn't come from a multinational fast food chain. Sometimes, when you're hungry, you need to eat what's available.
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| M |
| | July 28, 2007 at 08:42 PM | Reply with quote | #39 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Maria
What we did yesterday may or may not have been a good idea. I'll have to discuss it with T. It may be that she needs baby steps and this is jumping off the cliff for her and we need to get her more stable and at her normal range of weight b4 pushing the feared foods. She wants to compromise and I have to figure out the pay offs versus dangers. For istance, if we push ice cream, she wants frozen yogurt. So, do we make frozen yogurt a weekly event to desensitize her to the idea/taste of it then graduate to ice cream? Anyway, yesterday's experience showed me w/o a shadow of a doubt that my d will NEVER recover from AN until she is able to eat "junk food" without fear and anxiety. We just have to be wise with the timing of re-introducing these foods.
I think you did very well yesterday. And I think you can safely regard it as having gotten over a hump. That you did not back down on the ice cream was HUGE. Let me tell you what all you accomplished there:
AN argued to not have the fried part of the chicken, and you stood firm.
The AN realized it was not going to win that particular argument, and changed tactics. It didn't think you would actually make your daughter eat the ice cream, but you called its bluff.
The AN then made your daughter argue about the ice cream, thinking it might be able to win THAT argument. You stood firm again.
Finally the AN gave up temporarily because it knew it couldn't win.
(Cue the sound of a crowd leaping to it's feet, heart-stirring music swells, and then the crowd roars! Clapping, hugging all around.)
You, my dear lady, just won yet another battle for your daughter's health!
THAT is your mission in refeeding. And you did it beautifully!
I know the 'I hate you's' and the crying are distressing. They were distressing to me, too--at times I thought I could hardly stand it. Some of this is AN garbage, and some of it is real anxiety and distress on your daughter's part, although that is also caused by the anorexia. But, you know what? It sure sounds like she came through it just fine.
You may find that any sort of choice (or even what she perceives as choice, i.e., offering to trade ice cream for chicken crust) makes the anxiety worse. That's part of why Harriet said what she said about bargaining, etc. . . with the AN. Also, I would think twice about backpedalling to frozen yogurt and then working back up to ice cream. That would send the message to both the AN and your daughter that you are willing to truck with ice cream being a fear food--AND that you agree that somehow frozen yogurt is "safer". That would be going backwards. Take this little piece of territory you've won--and your daughter has accepted--and don't look back.
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| ipwillymom |
| | July 29, 2007 at 01:28 AM | Reply with quote | #40 |
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I am so conflicted with this issue so I want to put a few thoughts out there and hear responses. My D has a major aversion to McDs as well. I truly belief the seed of An was planted in my D when she first saw the movie Fast Food Nation a couple of years ago. I don't believe this set it off but it was always in the back of her mind.
The reality is the food at McDs truly is so bad for us, as are things like partially hydrogenated oils and corn syrup. And trust me when I say that I have never had AN, AN thoughts or any kind of ED. I grew up on crap and have high cholesterol to show for it and take medication for it. I have also cut this stuff out of my diet as best I can. To that end however, my 7 year old son loves his chicken McNugget happy meals and he gets to eat them on occasion.
Trans fats are currently banned from being used in restaurants in NYC and probably will ultimately be banned across the U.S. much the same as public smoking is being outlawed across the country.
So here's the question - while I understand the points being made re: the AN thoughts having to be conquered, is it necessary to really incorporate this crap into the diet to do so? I sort of look at it like smoking . . . if your child had a horrible fear of sitting next to people who smoke, would you make them do it?
M and Maria please, please don't take any of this as criticism. I know we are all doing the best we can and I certainly don't believe I know the best thing for anyone - I too am struggling. Maria,- I know the day you described must have been awful and you did great for the situation. but this is a question I ask myself repeatedly - I want help with this as well.
My D will eat almost anything if it is "healthy" (i.e., no trans fat) at this point - ice cream, chocolate, french fries, etc. She said to me today (as we are traveling), that she doesn't think she eats as well away from home and was worried (I am so proud of this child to notice). She's starting to remind me when she has to eat . . . It is extremely difficult for me to say that the AN is preventing her from eating "junk food" although that very well may be the case . . . however, we don't call it junk food for nothing and even if it is the AN speaking, is it really that necessary to make her put that stuff in her body when I won't myself? |
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| ipwillymom |
| | July 29, 2007 at 01:36 AM | Reply with quote | #41 |
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| sorry about the poor grammar . . . very late and I'm very tired! |
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| Harriet |
| | July 29, 2007 at 01:43 AM | Reply with quote | #42 |
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The goal is for your daughter to eat competently and joyfully, as Ellyn Satter would say. And I would add, To eat without fear.
The trouble with fear is that it's a slippery slope. Today it's McD's; tomorrow it's restaurant food. Today it's cheese rolls, tomorrow it's all carbs.
I wouldn't suggest eating McD's every night, but once in a while isn't going to hurt. Ditto with trans-fats, high fructose corn syrup, and pretty much anything else that's considered bad for you. I think it's best to confront and face down all food fears during recovery so nothing lingers on, and that includes modeling eating without fear for your d too.
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| Marie #2 |
| | July 29, 2007 at 02:24 AM | Reply with quote | #43 |
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It is fascinating to me to see how concerned people are about such foods. As kids, we ate McD's any time we could talk my parents into paying for it. It didn't happen that often, but back then it was a money thing, not because it was considered unhealthy. We also ate at KFC as well as eating home fried chicken (remember Crisco?)
And yet, my brothers, sister and I all grew up healthy and physically fit. To this day, no one in my family has any health problems related to bad diet. No high cholestoral, no diabetes, no heart problems, nothing. And I still eat at fast food restaurants whenever the mood strikes.
While obviously some people need to stay away from certain foods for health reasons, I feel that most of this is media hype fueled by Americas all or none attitude.
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| A. |
| | July 29, 2007 at 02:26 AM | Reply with quote | #44 |
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The doctors made in very clear in hospital that eating fish and chips or maccy d's everyday for a month would do you less harm that being extremly underweight. The amount of strain the body goes through in a depleated state is far more destructive than foods with high amounts of fat for a short space of time. |
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| Susan |
| | July 29, 2007 at 03:14 AM | Reply with quote | #45 |
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Marie #2,
Agreed. My childhood was the same, plus chips, soda, ice cream, candy, etc. -- not to excess but certainly regularly. My d is often frustrated that so many of her friends aspire to eat "healthy" and that so few of them will consume any beef at all, much less bacon or sausage. Not only that, but my 11 year old gets criticism from her classmates about the foods she eats. Sometimes I feel as if we've reached a state of hysteria about healthy eating and obesity.
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| Maria |
| | July 29, 2007 at 07:43 AM | Reply with quote | #46 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by ipwillymom
I am so conflicted with this issue ..... M and Maria please, please don't take any of this as criticism. - I too am struggling. Maria,- I know the day you described must have been awful and you did great for the situation. but this is a question I ask myself repeatedly - I want help with this as well....My D will eat almost anything if it is "healthy" (i.e., no trans fat) at this point - ice cream, chocolate, french fries, etc. is it really that necessary to make her put that stuff in her body when I won't myself?
I don't think that the media is in hysteria about it because the childhood obesity and diabetes II epidemy in this country is very real. 25% of the kids in my daughter's class are very obese w a couple qualifying as morbidly obese, 25% are obese,the rest is at a normal range and my d and maybe another kid are underweight. I will talk to my T about what transpired re. the McD's issue and decide what our plan of action needs to be. HOWEVER, d's AN is what drives these fears. I approached the subject yesterday just to dig information from her as we make our decision. I listed every item that goes into making a home made choc chip cookie. She loves choc because I have brainwhashed her that it is a healthy food (antioxidants, etc), freshly milled flour, etc. She tentatively said she liked and ate all of those things. Then, I said "Great, I'll make us some Mommy homemade choc chip cookies for dessert!" At this point she flipped and said "Oh, NO, you have gone way too far this time. I WILL NOT EVER eat a cookie." Yes, I know you don't argue with AN and that was who was talking to me so I just said "we'll discuss it w/ T". The point is that she has gotten these notions in her head about what junk food constitutes. So, she will eat a Mary B's frozen buiscuit basically full of fat and processed refined white flour because it is bread (but it provides much needed 400 per cals per buiscuit - JOY!) but won't eat a wholesome homemade cookie because it is a "cookie". I may not make her have to eat McD's fried chicken strips again and let her eat grilled chiken but she should be able to eat fries on the road or whatever if that is the only thing that is available for her. The idea is to take the phobia out of those foods so that she has options. My d would rather STARVE than give in to "junk foods". Isn't that what all ANs would rather do?
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| Maria |
| | July 29, 2007 at 08:56 AM | Reply with quote | #47 |
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correction: Mary B's buiscuits have about 200 cals each. |
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| kat2 |
| | July 29, 2007 at 09:20 AM | Reply with quote | #48 |
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Quote: Originally Posted by Harriet
By far the best and strongest course of action is to not engage in any conversation, negotiation, or compromise around food or eating. (The ice cream for the chicken crusts was OK, though, because it was trading one fear food for another rather than giving in to fear.) You're right to think about desensitization here, but what our family and many others find is that it's best to jump right in. Otherwise it can take much longer to desensitize to all the fear foods. Frozen yogurt is NOT a good substitute for ice cream--not enough calories, plus it's a "safe" food for many anorexics.
What we saw was that anytime we allowed even a little bit of negotiation or discussion around these issues, our d's anxiety shot WAY up. We thought we were being kind, not pushing her too hard too fast, etc., but in actuality we were prolonging her agony.
I had to bump this. So much value in these two paragraphs, imo. |
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| ipwillymom |
| | July 29, 2007 at 10:39 AM | Reply with quote | #49 |
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Gosh - I guess this one is a tough one for me - thank you for such quick responses. . .
Because this dreadful illness is about food, the degree of desensitization leaves me confused. I suppose I don't quite know how to verbalize this one as to why, but the best I can do is offer another analogy: If a child is afraid of heights - to what degree must they be exposed to height to be "cured?" For example, do you place them on a tenth story ledge of a building or do you keep them in the building and have them look out the window? If the AN fear is genuinely gone except as to McDs, is it still AN fear, and, if it is, does that one need to be confronted? Again, I just don't have the answer.
Harriet, just wanted to let you know I sort of giggled (if only I could really laugh about this one) about role modeling - I have eaten so much, of so many things that I never would have in the past year, that I've gained almost 10 pounds - my Dr. literally had to double my lipitor - hadn't had real ice cream or so much butter in years! |
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| Maria |
| | July 29, 2007 at 12:20 PM | Reply with quote | #50 |
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I just bought the book "How to help your teen beat an eating disorder" and started reading it today. What do Locke and Le Grange say about this specific topic? Are "junk" foods (cookies, chips, cakes, sodas) given and mandated at the hospitals that follow the Maudsley approach? Obviously, they are not the real world but they are there to start them on the road to eating normally. |
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